The new COVID thread

[Bene Futuis]

In really good news, though, it sure looks like we'll be getting a vaccine approved for kids really soon. Pfizer presenting theirs to the FDA by the end of the month. It has been awful and nerve wracking having a kid who can't get vaccinated.

[Bene Futuis]

It's these loudmouths that piss me off more than any individual who doesn't get a vaccine. Every responsible news source should be directing people to get info from medical professionals. When did vaccines become part of politics ? Why are people afraid of this vaccine in particular, yet they have gotten many other vaccines ?

EDIT: i went to a football game a week or so ago with my doctor friend and we asked him about this. He had a very simple answer for everyone who asks him. "The Vaccine is safe and effective".

Republican lawmakers, mouthpieces, media personalities, propagandists (from Fox to OAN to Newsmax and on and on) are to blame. Chancellor is fucking high. It's obviously a left (get the damn shot) versus right (stick a UV light up your ass while chugging bleach and consuming horse dewormer) issue. In fact, vaccination rates are a better predictor of 2020 voting patterns now than racial demographics, or pretty much any other demographic, and even a better predictor than 2000 voting patterns. Deep red states have the lowest vaccination rates and on and on and on. I mean, the partisan nature of vaccination is pretty damn obvious, at least to me. Same for mask wearing, social distancing, etc. Hell, Republicans are actively preventing local governments and school boards from enacting preventative measures to fight COVID, threatening their jobs and their funding. Polling is extraordinarily clear on this, with a recent poll I saw showing 95% of Democrats already vaccinated or plan to be while only 40% of Republicans say the same. Another poll shows 58% of Republicans saying they will never get the shot while only 15% of Democrats say the same. Other polling has different numbers but similarly enormous gaps between Dems and Repubs. Conservative leaders are killing their own. Research published in peer reviewed journals showed Republicans taking their early cues from the idiots leading their party and then stuck to them no matter what, to their obvious detriment and to everyone else's as well.

[The Feral Slasher]

While this is a popular media-driven illusion, the data driven facts sure don't support the point, overall. Sure, there's a fair number of loudmouths on the right that oppose vaccines and mask mandates. But overall? The oldest age groups - 65+ are both more conservative than the norm AND about 84% vaccinated. 50-64 is over 70% vaccinated. Young adults - who lean more liberal than the norm - are much less vaccinated. The age 25-39 age group is only about 54% vaccinated, age 18-24 notably less.

The African-American population, overwhelmingly Democratic voters, have the lowest vaccination rate by racial demographic. And it's not really close.

Data source, in case you're wondering, is the CDC itself: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...raphics-trends

It's these loudmouths that piss me off more than any individual who doesn't get a vaccine. Every responsible news source should be directing people to get info from medical professionals. When did vaccines become part of politics ? Why are people afraid of this vaccine in particular, yet they have gotten many other vaccines ?

EDIT: i went to a football game a week or so ago with my doctor friend and we asked him about this. He had a very simple answer for everyone who asks him. "The Vaccine is safe and effective".

[chancellor]

That's it. It's more about a fear of change than anything else, and Conservative mindset fearing change forces them to dig in instead of confronting reality. That's been my biggest takeaway of late.

While this is a popular media-driven illusion, the data driven facts sure don't support the point, overall. Sure, there's a fair number of loudmouths on the right that oppose vaccines and mask mandates. But overall? The oldest age groups - 65+ are both more conservative than the norm AND about 84% vaccinated. 50-64 is over 70% vaccinated. Young adults - who lean more liberal than the norm - are much less vaccinated. The age 25-39 age group is only about 54% vaccinated, age 18-24 notably less.

The African-American population, overwhelmingly Democratic voters, have the lowest vaccination rate by racial demographic. And it's not really close.

Data source, in case you're wondering, is the CDC itself: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...raphics-trends

[Teenwolf]

As more stories are pushed highlighting prominent right-wing anti-vaxxers dying of COVID, the thing that strikes me the most is that many of these folks actually believed what they are selling, enough to die for their beliefs. I really figured most people peddling crazy do it because it sells, not because they actually believe it. But seeing so many of them die unvaxxed, it seems a lot of these folks are touting their sincere beliefs. I guess it does not matter all the much in the grand scheme, but it makes me think of them differently.

Some have changed their minds, admitted they were wrong just before dying.

The biggest revelation for me was seeing an interview with Caleb Landry, the guy who started a militia of anti-vaxxers called the Freedom Defenders, then died from Covid. He said something that really clearly illustrated the connection between right-wing thinking and anti-vax/anti-science thinking. Masks and vaccines and following safety protocol is completely new and foreign, and that's entirely antithetical to Conservative ideology. They fear and fight against change, in all forms. Landry put it so succinctly, saying "we don't want masks, and we don't want vaccines. We just want to go back to things like they were before."

That's it. It's more about a fear of change than anything else, and Conservative mindset fearing change forces them to dig in instead of confronting reality. That's been my biggest takeaway of late.

[Bene Futuis]

As more stories are pushed highlighting prominent right-wing anti-vaxxers dying of COVID, the thing that strikes me the most is that many of these folks actually believed what they are selling, enough to die for their beliefs. I really figured most people peddling crazy do it because it sells, not because they actually believe it. But seeing so many of them die unvaxxed, it seems a lot of these folks are touting their sincere beliefs. I guess it does not matter all the much in the grand scheme, but it makes me think of them differently.

Right wing Christian conservative radio host Bob Enyart has died of COVID.

Enyart gained fame by reading the names of those who had died of AIDS while laughing and calling them sodomites. He also lied to his listeners, claiming the COVID vaccine had been tested on aborted fetuses. He prevailed in a lawsuit in which he sought an injunction against the State of Colorado in its attempts to impose mask mandates at his church, the Denver Bible Church.

Good luck dealing with St. Peter, I guess, fella. You died like you lived: stupid, dangerous, and full of hubris.

[Sour Masher]

As more stories are pushed highlighting prominent right-wing anti-vaxxers dying of COVID, the thing that strikes me the most is that many of these folks actually believed what they are selling, enough to die for their beliefs. I really figured most people peddling crazy do it because it sells, not because they actually believe it. But seeing so many of them die unvaxxed, it seems a lot of these folks are touting their sincere beliefs. I guess it does not matter all the much in the grand scheme, but it makes me think of them differently.

[umjewman]

I believe a vaccine mandate would survive strict scrutiny, assuming some sort of religious exception (which this one does have). It certainly survives a rational basis test with ease, imo.

My eyes started to glaze over at strict scrutiny. Although Con Law was wayyyyyyy better than Property Law. Kiss my ass, Pierson v. Post.

[Bene Futuis]

When did RJ become my Constitutional Law class from 1L?

I believe a vaccine mandate would survive strict scrutiny, assuming some sort of religious exception (which this one does have). It certainly survives a rational basis test with ease, imo.

[umjewman]

How can they enforce the mandate though?

Mask mandates have been a joke because there is no enforcement outside of signs on doors. I've yet to walk into a business and see employees refuse to help or accept money from unmasked customers.

I'd like to see mask enforcement folks put into society, like parking enforcement. $20 fines for not following indoor mask mandates as stores, shops, etc with funds going to Healthcare Worker relief fund. Creates jobs and gives funds to the group most tasked by the hardliners who continue to confuse their rights with their responsibilities.

I laughed last night because I had to run to Staples for a "school supply emergency" and there's a big sign on the door that says "MASKS REQUIRED." I walked into the store and the first 5 customers I saw had no masks on. It improved after that but, yeah, there's no realistic mask enforcement.

[umjewman]

When did RJ become my Constitutional Law class from 1L?

[Bene Futuis]

The mandate will require vaccinations, and proof thereof, but not masks. Opt-outs will be in place for those who show negative tests relatively frequently (2x/week? can't remember). Companies with 100+ workers fined something like $14k for each noncompliant employee.

[Moonlight J]

How can they enforce the mandate though?

Mask mandates have been a joke because there is no enforcement outside of signs on doors. I've yet to walk into a business and see employees refuse to help or accept money from unmasked customers.

I'd like to see mask enforcement folks put into society, like parking enforcement. $20 fines for not following indoor mask mandates as stores, shops, etc with funds going to Healthcare Worker relief fund. Creates jobs and gives funds to the group most tasked by the hardliners who continue to confuse their rights with their responsibilities.

[Bene Futuis]

The way Biden did the mandate for private business makes it much, much more likely to pass constitutional muster. There is no doubt that government may impose mandates for vaccinations of deadly disease. That has been law for more than one hundred years and the Jacobson decision is almost shockingly broad. There is also the notion that the federal government must impose mandates according to federal statute. OSHA's authorizing legislation, signed into law by Nixon more than 50 years ago, provides just such a statute. OSHA has specific carve-outs for emergency standards to promote worker safety. The one hurdle will be that mandates promulgated under OSHA are subject to a review and comment period, or something similar, which will likely take place simultaneously to the passing of the mandate under emergent circumstances (ongoing COVID and emerging Delta variant health emergencies). Clearly this whole topic, though, falls easily within the Commerce Clause of the Constitution.

Edit: I also think a national mandate requiring everyone to be vaccinated, assuming some narrow exceptions for medical and religious objection, would also easily pass constitutional muster.

[chancellor]

I assume you are referring to state mandates. Have we ever had a national mandate? Here is a source that suggests it has not been done before and that a federal mandate may not hold up:https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...solid-science/

Federal and state governments: States have long had the constitutional authority to mandate vaccinations, which the Supreme Court has upheld twice, first in 1905 and then in 1922. The federal government, however, has limited power to mandate vaccines. It can only require them to prevent transmission of a dangerous infectious disease across state lines or international borders. The federal government has never sought to require nationwide vaccinations, and the courts probably would not allow it

Neither smallpox nor polio vaccines were done under national mandate, but due to the interstate transmission potential of the disease, I think you could put forward a strong case for a national vaccine mandate. However, in how the president has chosen to implement it, I think there's a lot of roads for challenge and potential overturn. Specifically,

- the 1905 precedent you noted, and I believe Bene is implying, is Jacobsen v Massachusetts. SCOTUS did uphold the Massachusetts law - which, importantly, was a law, passed through the Commonwealth's House, Senate, and signed by the Governor. Moreover, the law had a buyout "opt out" option. Subsequent rulings appear like they've handled the buyout issue, but I'm leery that the Court will draw a parallel on an act fully implemented by the Executive Branch, with no Congressional approval. And that doesn't even consider the issue whether the Department of Labor has the reach to institute such a rule.
- the 1922 precedent you noted, I am pretty sure is Buck v Bell. That definitely broadened Jacobsen is a big way. Some of it has been modified, but at least to my knowledge, Buck v Bell has never been fully reversed. And to quote the greatest Admiral of all time, Admiral Ackbar, "It's a TRAP!!". Biden's legal team could well win a 9-0 decision in favor of his vaccine mandate, but end up gutting Roe completely should they go down this path.

I'm wondering how fast this will get to SCOTUS, and who will be arguing the case.