The new COVID thread

[madducks]

People who do their "research" on Facebook don't like fact checkers lol.

[Sour Masher]

Vaccine mandates are as American as apple pie. SCOTUS affirmed vaccine mandates over a century ago and they have been employed throughout our nation's history in numerous ways.

I assume you are referring to state mandates. Have we ever had a national mandate? Here is a source that suggests it has not been done before and that a federal mandate may not hold up:https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...solid-science/

Federal and state governments: States have long had the constitutional authority to mandate vaccinations, which the Supreme Court has upheld twice, first in 1905 and then in 1922. The federal government, however, has limited power to mandate vaccines. It can only require them to prevent transmission of a dangerous infectious disease across state lines or international borders. The federal government has never sought to require nationwide vaccinations, and the courts probably would not allow it

[madducks]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

I've been hearing rumors for a few weeks now that UPS was going to make it a requirement for employment. Now, when the anti-vaxxers complain, management can blame it on Joe.

[Bene Futuis]

I can't find a deadline date anywhere. Is there one? Will this hold up? If so, this is a huge game changer. But this is unprecedented as far as I can tell. Ballsy move, but I am skeptical it will mean all these folks get vaccinated soon or if it even holds up against the legal challenges. Do you think it might? If so, when might we see it actually be enforced?

Vaccine mandates are as American as apple pie. SCOTUS affirmed vaccine mandates over a century ago and they have been employed throughout our nation's history in numerous ways.

[Sour Masher]

You all see that anti-masker woman who was so disgusted with a mask wearing mom and child (who are following the mandate in their area) that she hacked all over them with glee as she continually followed and mocked them for being scared sheep? She has been fired. #consequences.

https://www.insider.com/coughing-kar...t-viral-2021-9


Watch the video only if you want to feel enraged. Her firing couldn't have happened to a more deserving COVID Karen. I think she should face assault charges too. I honestly do not know what I would have done if this woman started coughing on my kids. I'm very glad I was not put in that situation, because I would not have handled it as well as this mother. I also sincerely hope she is not hired and lionized by some right-wing media outlet. Hell, she might win an election for being brave and coughing all over kids during a pandemic.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1435200650804146177

The Reddit user who posted the video, Jessabird, said in her post, “So my kid and I were at the store tonight to pick up a few groceries when this lady approached us and said politely, ‘Excuse me,’ and to be honest I thought she was going to ask me for help or ask where something was. I was about to say ‘I don’t work here, lady,’ when she asked why we were wearing masks. That’s when I realized that she wasn’t wearing one herself.”

Jessabird added:

I started walking away, while replying, ‘Because of the Delta variant, and also because there’s a mandate.’ Then she went on about how she was born and raised here in Nebraska, and it’s too bad that some Nebraskans have turned into sheep. She asked if I’ve had a vaccine and said that my kid and I don’t need to wear masks because we look young and healthy. There were several other people around wearing masks but for some reason she chose to pick on me and my kid

At the end of this video, some poor guy working there tried to intervene and basically told us all to just go our separate ways. Karen walked away and I told the guy what happened. He said it wasn’t the first time he’s had to deal with people like her at work. I then tried to continue my shopping but this lady followed me around the store.

I told her she needs to keep her distance and that her coughing on me was assault. She laughed and kept saying ‘Look at you, it’s so cute how scared you are!”‘By this time I was absolutely livid, trying my best to hold it together in front of my kid. I didn’t finish my shopping, instead I went to the self checkout to pay for my stuff. Next she followed me to use the self checkout right next to mine. I informed the employee manning the checkouts that this woman had assaulted me in the store by coughing deliberately on me, but I didn’t wait around to see what the employee would say in response. I just really wanted to get us the heck out of there.

[Sour Masher]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

I can't find a deadline date anywhere. Is there one? Will this hold up? If so, this is a huge game changer. But this is unprecedented as far as I can tell. Ballsy move, but I am skeptical it will mean all these folks get vaccinated soon or if it even holds up against the legal challenges. Do you think it might? If so, when might we see it actually be enforced?

[GwynnInTheHall]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

LA Public schools announces Vaccine mandate for all eligible students.

[Bene Futuis]

Biden announces a vaccine mandate for federal employees and also corporations who employ more than 100 people.

[Sour Masher]

I know you wanted a Right leaning rebuttal and I hope you get it. I also appreciate you trying to drag the conversation back into the middle and hope it becomes more inclusive. Good luck in your endeavor.

I do, but it is a fool's errand, so I will take what I can get .

I sometimes create an imaginary middle-right position in my head that I idealize as the GOP I want rather than the radical, extremist terrorist/insurrection party we have right now (not that I think most main street Republicans are that, but a scary number seem to be at the moment). I believe any "side" benefits from pushback and critique, if it is coming from an informed and well-meaning place. That is not what we often get, though.

I kinda lament that the Trump era has made me so repulsed by right-wing ideology that I have cut myself off from engaging folks on that side. I only talk politics with one right-winger friend, and I find it hard to really get into it, because he has a lot of personal baggage he carries against the left as a general concept, as he was born in Cuba where his father was imprisoned by the Castro admin, and it is almost genetically ingrained in him that the left=bad, and all roads leads to Castro, because he grew up in an extreme, perverted corruption of leftist ideology. It is hard for me to dismiss that experience, so I just try to differentiate it from what the left means in most places. But for him, when he sees Bernie Sanders, he sees the face of evil. And even more perplexing, when he sees Joe Biden, he sees a Bernie Sanders puppet, so there is no centrist Dem that does not carry the fear of a slippery slope to communist Cuba, so he supports the right, even when it was Trump, someone he saw as a blowhard and crass, but a far lesser evil than Darth Sanders and his Squad Stormtroopers.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Since there are not enough opposing viewpoints in here, I feel like playing devil's advocate at the moment, to present perspectives others may hold but are not sharing here. To be clear, I am not claiming these arguments as my own, but I do think they warrant more consideration and discussion than they are often given on the left, by others and by me. So, here are a couple of assumptions/postulations and let's see if it leads to substantive discussion and possibly evidence that verifies or refutes them.

Assumption 1: Vaccination has overwhelmingly been proven to be by far the more effective approach to stopping a disease and saving lives than treatments after the fact.

Postulation 1: Because of this, and because of an underlying assumption about the selfishness or simplemindedness of the American people, there has emerged a tacit agreement (or maybe an overt one) between left-leaning media and science officials to marginalize, dismiss out-of-hand, or fearmonger about treatments for COVID, not because those concerns are valid in every case, but instead, very often, because of the larger concern that validating treatments undermines vaccination and/or is a cynical kneejerk reaction to anything being touted on the right, which they assume is being pushed for financial gain or to simply undermine vaccination efforts.

Assumption 2: Donald Trump and Trump acolytes are primarily motivated not by truth but political alignment and so those are the left are extremely skeptical of any and all attacks/claims made by him against others.

Postulation 2: Because of this, the left has reacted with its own tribalism, defending on principal those who Trump attacks, and can be blinded to the possibility that while Trump and others on the right may be attacking the person or concept for selfish, political reasons, by sheer coincidence, it is possible that those people or ideas have legitimate cause for scrutiny that the left ignores, for fear of playing into the hands of propagandists on the right. Two examples: the Anthonys. One example of this might be the early dismissal of questions about how Cuomo handled nursing homes early in the pandemic, and subsequent defending of him after allegations of improper behavior emerged. Another might be the protectionism and aversion to examine the decisions, advice, and claims of Anthony Fauci (who has, it should be noted, devoted his life to helping others, and has gotten death threats for it lately). But are legitimate questions about his early advice about the efficacy of masks, and his more recent seemingly demonstrably false claims about US gain of function research funding being overlooked on the left? Have the previous, early and seemingly unfair and politically motivated attacks on him now shielded him from legitimate critique and questioning?

Anyone else got any other arguments that are not very easily dismissed as horse poop from the center or left? So much of what we discuss here is so obviously a question of the right vs the wrong that it just leads to us all agreeing to some degree or another. It would be interesting if we had some folks putting forth arguments that are less easily dealt with. I thought Gregg's recent eagle egg comment in the abortion thread warranted response and further discussion, as it seemed to reveal an inconsistency in thought on part of pro-conservationist, pro-choice people, but it went no where, aside from a silly joke I made to lighten the mood.

I'll bite.

First, to Gregg's Eagle egg statement. Eagles are endangered, when Humans start to trend toward extinction, you'll see similar legislation protecting Eggs/Sperm etc. No response from me because it was not an accurate analogy.

Anthony's. There was plenty of pushback on Cuomo from the Left regarding BOTH his handling of the Eldercare/Covid issues AND even MORE toward his sexual assault charges--so I don't see that your claim that those on the Left defended him as accurate. But I may have missed someone doing so, those issues being a year and a half apart. Fauci, Unless you expect everyone in charge of everything to be perfect, you can forgive his early mistake about masks and if not, applaud him for recognizing, admitting and correcting that same mistake. He absolutely Parsed the Gain of Function issue and though didn't technically lie, did obfuscate the issue. Yes they funded GOF research--No it wasn't GOF research on the Covid virus which is Covid-19. He's been pretty spot on through this whole thing and done pretty well given the fact he had to bite his tongue quite a bit through the first year of the pandemic. I don't see the Left ignoring it at all, to date--ONLY Democrats have resigned when confronted with these charges/situations. Unless you can point out someone on the Right who's been charged with incidents similar to Cuomo and Franken stepping down, cuz I can't recall one in the recent past doing so. I don't see the left looking past much of anything, at least not in this forum.

Trump. I can't really answer your question as I am of the belief, well you know what I believe.

I know you wanted a Right leaning rebuttal and I hope you get it. I also appreciate you trying to drag the conversation back into the middle and hope it becomes more inclusive. Good luck in your endeavor.

[Sour Masher]

Since there are not enough opposing viewpoints in here, I feel like playing devil's advocate at the moment, to present perspectives others may hold but are not sharing here. To be clear, I am not claiming these arguments as my own, but I do think they warrant more consideration and discussion than they are often given on the left, by others and by me. So, here are a couple of assumptions/postulations and let's see if it leads to substantive discussion and possibly evidence that verifies or refutes them.

Assumption 1: Vaccination has overwhelmingly been proven to be by far the more effective approach to stopping a disease and saving lives than treatments after the fact.

Postulation 1: Because of this, and because of an underlying assumption about the selfishness or simplemindedness of the American people, there has emerged a tacit agreement (or maybe an overt one) between left-leaning media and science officials to marginalize, dismiss out-of-hand, or fearmonger about treatments for COVID, not because those concerns are valid in every case, but instead, very often, because of the larger concern that validating treatments undermines vaccination and/or is a cynical kneejerk reaction to anything being touted on the right, which they assume is being pushed for financial gain or to simply undermine vaccination efforts.

Assumption 2: Donald Trump and Trump acolytes are primarily motivated not by truth but political alignment and so those are the left are extremely skeptical of any and all attacks/claims made by him against others.

Postulation 2: Because of this, the left has reacted with its own tribalism, defending on principal those who Trump attacks, and can be blinded to the possibility that while Trump and others on the right may be attacking the person or concept for selfish, political reasons, by sheer coincidence, it is possible that those people or ideas have legitimate cause for scrutiny that the left ignores, for fear of playing into the hands of propagandists on the right. Two examples: the Anthonys. One example of this might be the early dismissal of questions about how Cuomo handled nursing homes early in the pandemic, and subsequent defending of him after allegations of improper behavior emerged. Another might be the protectionism and aversion to examine the decisions, advice, and claims of Anthony Fauci (who has, it should be noted, devoted his life to helping others, and has gotten death threats for it lately). But are legitimate questions about his early advice about the efficacy of masks, and his more recent seemingly demonstrably false claims about US gain of function research funding being overlooked on the left? Have the previous, early and seemingly unfair and politically motivated attacks on him now shielded him from legitimate critique and questioning?

Anyone else got any other arguments that are not very easily dismissed as horse poop from the center or left? So much of what we discuss here is so obviously a question of the right vs the wrong that it just leads to us all agreeing to some degree or another. It would be interesting if we had some folks putting forth arguments that are less easily dealt with. I thought Gregg's recent eagle egg comment in the abortion thread warranted response and further discussion, as it seemed to reveal an inconsistency in thought on part of pro-conservationist, pro-choice people, but it went no where, aside from a silly joke I made to lighten the mood.

[MagSeven]

So the past couple of days interacting with Anti vaxxers and Covid deniers has been enlightening to say the least.

Hospitals get 39K if they claim a death was due to Covid...blah blah Blah...

Technically they are correct about the $39K Covid payment. However, that is only for Medicare patients and Medicare requires TONS of documentation for any type of special upcoding. These people think that providers can just go ahead and say all their patients have Covid to get the extra windfall. No legitimate doctor or hospital would jeopardize their Medicare certifications by illegally giving a Covid diagnosis. Medicare audits annually, and they have no problems recouping overpayments from incorrect coding. In addition, if Medicare decides that the incorrect coding was done intentionally, licenses can be suspended or revoked, and providers with Medicare patients typically have Medicare as a high percentage of it's payor base.

[madducks]

48 year-old boxer Oscar De La Hoya who had been training for a comeback has been hospitalized with COVID.

[Sour Masher]

I've seen conflicting studies on this. I've seen the one that I believe you are referencing, but I've seen some that show the opposite, e.g., this one:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

I've also seen studies that show that Pzifer loses effectiveness faster than Moderna (which uses a higher dose) or AstraZeneca (which uses the adenovirus).

I am not sure they are in conflict. I think most data was favoring vaccine vs natural immunity until the Delta variant flipped it.

[chancellor]

I've seen conflicting studies on this. I've seen the one that I believe you are referencing, but I've seen some that show the opposite, e.g., this one:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html

I've also seen studies that show that Pzifer loses effectiveness faster than Moderna (which uses a higher dose) or AstraZeneca (which uses the adenovirus).

All true, and the conflicting studies appear to be legit databases/methods/reviews. There's already legal challenges to vaccine mandates with a key issue being level of natural immunity if a person has had COVID. First one I saw was Zywicki v George Mason, and George Mason settled and gave Zywicki the exemption he was looking for.