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[johnnya24]

IN the big blind and got dealt A8 off... Big stack first to act has raised. Still action to come, I have 20k and could either call the $1000 or push.... likely a push

already 2 callers... Thinking a fold may be in order here

How many chips do the other 3 players have, and what are the blinds? Is there an ante?

[Piney Boy]

How many chips do the other 3 players have, and what are the blinds? Is there an ante?

blinds - 600/1200 ante 200

[baldgriff]

How many chips do the other 3 players have, and what are the blinds? Is there an ante?

I have 20k blinds - 600/1200 ante 200. There ended up being one caller and its now up to me. 1st to act had 107K, 2nd to act caller has 70k (and has been a solid player). There is 11k in the pot and I need to call $2400. If I call the raise and dont hit I can fold and still have enough to push if I get another hand on this orbit. Otherwise I push... and pray.

Im thinking I can still flat call and then decide from there.

Thoughts.

[johnnya24]

I have 20k blinds - 600/1200 ante 200. There ended up being one caller and its now up to me. 1st to act had 107K, 2nd to act caller has 70k (and has been a solid player). There is 11k in the pot and I need to call $2400. If I call the raise and dont hit I can fold and still have enough to push if I get another hand on this orbit. Otherwise I push... and pray.

Im thinking I can still flat call and then decide from there.

Thoughts.

Shoving: this is not that great a spot IMO. Ironically if you had more chips, it could be a great spot. But you don't have enough fold equity to squeeze here. So if you shove, your chances of winning are purely on the cards. If the big stack calls (pretty much guaranteed), then the other stack probably has to call (51K in the pot and only 20K to call).

So if you shove you will likely be taking A8 into a 71K pot (3.5/1), or a 2-way 51K pot (2.5/1)

If neither of your opponents have an ace, this is a decent spot to win a big pot (~15-30%). If you're heads up in a 51K pot it's an OK spot (~30-35%). If you're up against a bigger ace, and the other guy has a pair higher than 8's or 2 overs to your 8, you are in very very bad shape.

Best case scenario, you shove and get calling by 1 opponent with <77 or a KQ/KJ type hand (coin flip) ... you'd be extremely lucky to find this scenario. 30% is the best you can reasonably expect to hope for IMO.

Flat calling should be out of the equation with your stack size. You have to use your remaining chips as a single weapon, not fritter them away. The only real rationale for calling would be to make a stop-go play (calling to auto shove any flop), which generally works best against 1 other player.

Folding: personally my preferred option. I would prefer to preserve my chips and shove a weaker hand in a better spot. You have 17 BB's, so you are in the red zone, but you're not on life support. I would rather shove from late position against a mid-late position raise with any two half decent cards ... at least I'd have (a) substantial fold equity (b) greater chance of a heads up encounter (c) usually at least 30% chance of winning. And of course the longer you survive, the greater your chance of picking up a hand where you can get your money in as a 60/70% favourite.

I would look for a spot to make this play about once per round in order to preserve my chip stack.

-------------------

Flat calling is a mistake. Shoving and Folding are both legit options. Choose your medicine

[baldgriff]

Thanks Johnny. I was leaning towards the fold, but I was trying to make an excuse to be in the hand. Possible triple up...... Unlikely and I dont like this hand in a 3 way pot out of position. Just wanted to have someone tell me that folding is still the good play here.

Im folding.

[baldgriff]

Folded and 3 blanks. Im willing to live for another day.

[johnnya24]

Thanks Johnny. I was leaning towards the fold, but I was trying to make an excuse to be in the hand. Possible triple up...... Unlikely and I dont like this hand in a 3 way pot out of position. Just wanted to have someone tell me that folding is still the good play here.

Im folding.

Look for good spots to shove and isolate with your stack (with fold equity). You're cards don't really matter that much. You should be looking to shove hands as low as J8, J9, Q9, QT, 78s, 89s, 9Ts (any s-cons in fact). If you get called heads up with any of those hands, you have a reasonable chance of winning a nice pot. Chances are that you will have to win a coin flip or a 30-40% shot get back in it ... but give yourself that chance.

Example:

20K stack ... you are in the CO with 8Ts ... raiser from mid-position ... you shove.

Scenario 1: he folds ... pick up a nice 6/7K pot uncontested. Effectively you've won a free pot, and have bought a free half circuit to find another good spot.
Scenario 2: he calls and tables A9 ... we have about 41% chance of winning with our live s-cons.

Let's throw in another scenario ... let's say the BB has the AQ and calls, and the OR has A9.

In this scenario, if you take your 8Ts 3-way, you are still 35% to win a bigger pot.

Short stack tournament play all about looking for good spots, using your stack as a weapon, and playing with good fold equity as much as possible.

[Piney Boy]

I did it again. Read below.

Subject: [c20.10440] Holdem Game Broadcast Message(*)

! Table c20, Hand 129, Day 96

! Piney Boy calls
! Pot right ($49900), flopping/dealing/drawing cards
! 2 players, 1 all in
! Flopped cards: 10s 7c Jh
! Flopped card: 10h
! Flopped card: 2h
+-+----------------------------+--------+--------+------+----+--------+
|#| Name |Bankroll| Action |Status|Pot#|Pot Size|
+-+----------------------------+--------+--------+------+----+--------+
1| Dan Duncan | 14525 | 200 |folded| | |
2| dave | 35175 | 200 |folded| | |
4| Todd Yellin | 54375 | 200 |folded| | |
5| Warren Sander | 0 | 23350 |all-in| | |
6| whieri | 70000 | 200 |folded| | |
7|D Toast | 108425 | 200 |folded| | |
8| mash001 | 61125 | 800 |folded| | |
9| ICBlues | 89050 | 1400 |folded| | |
10|> Piney Boy | 24350 | 23350 | | | |
+-+----------------------------+--------+--------+------+----+--------+
! History of this hand:
! 01/25/13 06:08:36! Dealing a new hand
! 01/25/13 06:08:36! Everyone antes $200
! 01/25/13 06:08:36! mash001 blinds $600
! 01/25/13 06:08:36! ICBlues blinds $1200
! 01/25/13 06:56:38! Piney Boy raises $2400
! 01/25/13 06:56:38! Dan Duncan folds
! 01/25/13 08:12:27! dave folds
! 01/25/13 08:13:02! Todd Yellin folds
! 01/25/13 10:09:43! Warren Sander raises $19550 and is all in
! 01/25/13 10:09:43! whieri folds
! 01/25/13 10:12:25! Toast folds
! 01/25/13 10:12:25! mash001 folds
! 01/25/13 10:12:25! ICBlues folds
! 01/25/13 10:33:50! Piney Boy calls

! 01/25/13 10:33:50! Pot right ($49900), flopping/dealing/drawing cards
! 01/25/13 10:33:50! 2 players, 1 all in
! 01/25/13 10:33:50! Flopped cards: 10s 7c Jh
! 01/25/13 10:33:50! Flopped card: 10h
! 01/25/13 10:33:50! Flopped card: 2h
! Hand over, current board is: 10s 7c Jh 10h 2h
! Warren Sander has: Ks Kc
! Piney Boy has: Kh Qh
! Piney Boy wins $49900 (net $26550) with Heart Flush (K Q J 10 2)
+-+----------------------------+--------+--------+------+----+--------+
|#| Name |Bankroll| Action |Status|Pot#|Pot Size|
+-+----------------------------+--------+--------+------+----+--------+
1| Dan Duncan | 14525 | | | | |
2| dave | 35175 | | | | |
4| Todd Yellin | 54375 | | | | |
6| whieri | 70000 | | | | |
7| Toast | 108425 | | | | |
8|D mash001 | 61125 | | | | |
9| ICBlues | 89050 | | | | |
10|> Piney Boy | 74250 | | | | |
+-+----------------------------+--------+--------+------+----+--------+
! Warren Sander is eliminated!
! 365 players left in the tournament, 2 tables down to six players
! A new hand will be dealt shortly

[heyelander]

shame you missed the runner-runner straight flush! I think you may have just taken the RJ Chip lead. I'm down around 62k right now.

[johnnya24]

shame you missed the runner-runner straight flush! I think you may have just taken the RJ Chip lead. I'm down around 62k right now.

... and somewhere a mouse just crashed against a perfectly good monitor.

[Piney Boy]

shame you missed the runner-runner straight flush! I think you may have just taken the RJ Chip lead. I'm down around 62k right now.

Yeah I saw that. That would have been overkill.

And johnny- I know the guy had to be mad. I was thinking why not since I had him covered. At worst I would have had 24K left over.

[baldgriff]

In SB - first four to act all limp. Short stack of 8k pushes. I have 73 suited - fold..... Interested to see how many callers he gets here.

[johnnya24]

Yeah I saw that. That would have been overkill.

And johnny- I know the guy had to be mad. I was thinking why not since I had him covered. At worst I would have had 24K left over.

Right thinking ... no point waiting for the nuts ... and better to go bust in a monster pot than never to play a monster pot.

[In the Corn]

I'm BB and have 4-5 suited. Two limpers and I checked pre-flop. Flop came 2-4-4. The SB checked to me. I have almost $50K. The other two have $60 and $80K.

I'm think small continuation bet to keep them in, as I doubt anyone puts me on a set.

[johnnya24]

I'm BB and have 4-5 suited. Two limpers and I checked pre-flop. Flop came 2-4-4. The SB checked to me. I have almost $50K. The other two have $60 and $80K.

I'm think small continuation bet to keep them in, as I doubt anyone puts me on a set.

Is the flop suited?

What is your table image ... tight limping a lot? Aggressive? Do yo have any read of the other two players ... aggressive, limp a lot, weak?

Being OOP you need to choose your line now so as not to lose value. It would help if we had some info your your image and the other players.

EDIT: it's only a continuation bet if you were the final raiser preflop. If you bet here it's more like a "donk bet" or a "donk lead". Betting might still be the right move, but if you have a really tight limpy table image, betting here would be an error ... the other players will be asking ... what, all of a sudden you've become Tom Dwan? If your opponents are any good they will see you are not normally bluffing or semi-bluffing with draws, and that you'd check-call a 2. So you're hand range narrows to 444 or an overpair to the board.