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[baldgriff]

I checked and he bet $6825. That's twice his original raise. I really want to call, but would love some input.

Whats the pot size and how much do you have left?

[virgonomic]

All in or fold. It's likely he has a K, so you need to hit your straight. I'd fold and look for a better spot to get your money in.

[In the Corn]

Whats the pot size and how much do you have left?

The pot is just over $19K.

I have just over $30K.

[baldgriff]

If you call - you are basically pot committed. So then you need to choose all-in or walk away.

[johnnya24]

If you call - you are basically pot committed. So then you need to choose all-in or walk away.

I don't think he's pot committed. This is a tourney not a cash game ... survival more essential than pot odds in tourneys. Things can change fast with double ups. He'll still have 23K left. Calling here could freeze his opponent on the turn if he doesn't have a made hand, then he might have a steal opportunity on the river even if he misses his draw. Call and re-evaluate on the turn IMO.

Not much difference between 30K and 23K when you're in shove fold mode.

[In the Corn]

I don't think he's pot committed. This is a tourney not a cash game ... survival more essential than pot odds in tourneys. Things can change fast with double ups. He'll still have 23K left. Calling here could freeze his opponent on the turn if he doesn't have a made hand, then he might have a steal opportunity on the river even if he misses his draw. Call and re-evaluate on the turn IMO.

Not much difference between 30K and 23K when you're in shove fold mode.

I called.

Jack of spaded on the turn.

Looks like I'll be checking again...

[johnnya24]

I called.

Jack of spaded on the turn.

Looks like I'll be checking again...

The J was a crap card even though it "might" have given you 2 more outs ... the J could have helped him as well, and your QJ straight draw won't be well disguised if it hits, so you might not get paid off.

I wouldn't call another big bet ... keep your final 23K and play all or nothing poker. Hopefully he has nothing and plays scared and you get a look at a free river.

Another lesson in why position is the most important thing in NL poker

[DMT]

Another option here would be to shove yourself, essentially representing that the J made your hand, either the nut-straight or if you were holding 7-9. Your opponent has likely already put you on a drawing hand so if he suspects you hit it, he might fold. Then again, he might not, but you still have outs. I'm not sure 23K is going to be enough at this point to scare anyone off a good hand anyways so you're going to ante off your stack if you don't get a hand. Honestly, I would jam here, but it's your call. The Jack of Diamonds would have made this a better play.

[johnnya24]

Another option here would be to shove yourself, essentially representing that the J made your hand, either the nut-straight or if you were holding 7-9. Your opponent has likely already put you on a drawing hand so if he suspects you hit it, he might fold. Then again, he might not, but you still have outs. I'm not sure 23K is going to be enough at this point to scare anyone off a good hand anyways so you're going to ante off your stack if you don't get a hand. Honestly, I would jam here, but it's your call. The Jack of Diamonds would have made this a better play.

Why would you open shove the turn if you made your hand? If his opponent checked behind on the turn, a player might shove the river in this position ... but shoving the turn makes no sense. You're only going to force a fold from a smaller pair (AT), a mid pocket pair, a draw or combo hand. Much of this range will check the turn in position for pot control and/or a free look at the river. With such a dangerous board, you could be shoving into a big made hand ... so many hands beat you that just aren't folding in a game like this.

If you really wanted to try and pick up the pot here from a hand that might still fold, a 6-8K bet would have the same result. I don't really like either option ... 23K is still a playable stack if played aggressively and not limped away.

IMO, this is the kind of fishy play I'd make against a good player if you thought they had a decent hand and I wanted to look weak ... try and force the hero call.

[DMT]

Why would you open shove the turn if you made your hand? If his opponent checked behind on the turn, a player might shove the river in this position ... but shoving the turn makes no sense. You're only going to force a fold from a smaller pair (AT), a mid pocket pair, a draw or combo hand. Much of this range will check the turn in position for pot control and/or a free look at the river. With such a dangerous board, you could be shoving into a big made hand ... so many hands beat you that just aren't folding in a game like this.

If you really wanted to try and pick up the pot here from a hand that might still fold, a 6-8K bet would have the same result. I don't really like either option ... 23K is still a playable stack if played aggressively and not limped away.

IMO, this is the kind of fishy play I'd make against a good player if you thought they had a decent hand and I wanted to look weak ... try and force the hero call.

In the button he could have been raising with any hand, certainly any pair, or an A-blank, all of which are beaten. And like you said, even if he does have a strong hand, calling for most of his stack is still not a guarantee.

If he folds and has 23K left, he's going to be in shove-fold mode and everyone will know it...so he's relying on cards just to hang around and hopefully get lucky. I'm not saying you're wrong with your comments but I disagree that shoving makes no sense because it gives him three ways to win: 1) called by an inferior hand, 2) called by a superior hand but hits his draws, or 3) fold. It's basically a semi-bluff and this is as good a time as any to use it IMO.

Each round is now costing him 4K...23K isn't going to get it done.

[johnnya24]

In the button he could have been raising with any hand, certainly any pair, or an A-blank, all of which are beaten. And like you said, even if he does have a strong hand, calling for most of his stack is still not a guarantee.

If he folds and has 23K left, he's going to be in shove-fold mode and everyone will know it...so he's relying on cards just to hang around and hopefully get lucky. I'm not saying you're wrong with your comments but I disagree that shoving makes no sense because it gives him three ways to win: 1) called by an inferior hand, 2) called by a superior hand but hits his draws, or 3) fold. It's basically a semi-bluff and this is as good a time as any to use it IMO.

Each round is now costing him 4K...23K isn't going to get it done.

2 double ups with a 23K stack with high blinds ... you can be sitting with a 100K+ stack in no time.

Shoving the river makes sense because, if he has a hand, he's out of position and can't wait any longer ... he has to shove the river if the turn is checked.

But shoving the turn is a huge red flag bluff ... IMO it's a weak spot to bluff or semi-bluff shove.

I'd call that kind of shove with a pretty wide range.

[DMT]

2 double ups with a 23K stack with high blinds ... you can be sitting with a 100K+ stack in no time.

Shoving the river makes sense because, if he has a hand, he's out of position and can't wait any longer ... he has to shove the river if the turn is checked.

But shoving the turn is a huge red flag bluff ... IMO it's a weak spot to bluff or semi-bluff shove.

I'd call that kind of shove with a pretty wide range.

Exactly...there's a very decent chance that the other guy will put him on a complete bluff and call with an inferior hand. Counting on 2 double ups with a short-stack are longer odds IMO than winning this hand by shoving.

[In the Corn]

Well, we both checked and the 5c came on the river. Now, I'm thinking he has a small pair. I'm thinking checking again, but coming over the top if he bets out.

Thoughts?

[johnnya24]

Exactly...there's a very decent chance that the other guy will put him on a complete bluff and call with an inferior hand. Counting on 2 double ups with a short-stack are longer odds IMO than winning this hand by shoving.

He'd only need 1 double up to get up to get to the same chip total. There's only 25K in the pot.

[DMT]

Well, we both checked and the 5c came on the river. Now, I'm thinking he has a small pair. I'm thinking checking again, but coming over the top if he bets out.

Thoughts?

I think you've got the best hand because if he had a pair of kings or AJ there's no way he'd let you have a free card to make your hand. I think a check-raise is a good play because he likely wouldn't call your bet but might try to steal the hand thinking you've missed your draw.