President Donald Trump

[MagSeven]

The best balance/tone down the rhetoric thing I can offer is this. First, we shouldn't conflate (1) asylum seekers, and (2) illegal border crossers not presenting themselves at a checkpoint for asylum. Asylum seekers are not breaking any laws and, while the US government can evaluate their application and deny asylum, there is still no basis for separating families seeking asylum, and yet it's happening. That said, my understanding is that the majority of the detentions and family separations are not asylum seekers, but rather border crossers who were apprehended attempting to come into the US unnoticed. (I'm happy to be corrected on that point.) Still, the law does not require that families crossing the border illegally with children be separated from their children. It does, as written, require "unaccompanied minors" to be held in custody less than 20 days. My understanding is that some courts have interpreted/extrapolated that law to also require that "accompanied minors" also be held in custody less than 20 days, and that some are citing this as the justification for removing children from their parents, since the processing and hearings are backlogged beyond 20 days, and they don't want to "release" the adults who crossed illegally, so they remove the minors and place them in foster care or other child protective service driven environments. All of that still ignores the discretion that the administration has around enforcement and prosecution and processing, as well as the discretion to appoint and assign far more immigration judges and expedite processing for families with young children rather than separating the families. But the President has essentially by his words acknowledged that his Administration is exercising their discretion to heavily invest in "catching" border crossers without increasing resources for processing/adjudicating, and that he's banking on the surge in family separations to force the Democrats hands to fund his wall and otherwise get in line behind his immigration policies. These families and these children are being used as political pawns. (And I suppose a Trump supporter would argue that they're being used as pawns by the left to draw outrage against Trump and the GOP, but since this is all a consequence of the Trump administration's deliberate provocations, I'm not incredibly sympathetic to that argument.)

The original law regarding the unaccompanied juveniles was established when droves and droves of juveniles were crossing the border without parents/families. The whole purpose was not to use them as a bartering pawn but to get them back to their families, if possible.

[Hornsby]

Every single Democrat is a co-sponsor of the Keep Families Together Act. 49 out of 49...not ONE Republican has signed on.

[Judge Jude]

"How is this not like the great shame of our history, the Japanese internment camps?"

I apologize on your behalf to the 100,000+ Japanese-Americans and their descendants who suffered in those years - and whose suffering is now being trivialized. Obviously the Holocaust comparisons are 1 million times more despicable, but still.

[Sour Masher]

We live in a time of hyperbole, JJ. Our president does it all of the time. It seems to me the real issue is that what is being done here is WRONG. It goes against all values of decency, and undermines the Republicans alleged commitment to family. What benefit is there, in this moment, when people are trying to highlight that this is bad, to focus on calling out those who are being hyperbolic in their passion to see this changed?

For the record, I agree the holocaust comparisons are very poor ones and unfortunately allow proponents of this zero tolerance policy to deflect from the real issue to highlight how hyperbolic a very small handful of people fighting this policy are being.

JJ, it would surprise me if you were in favor of this policy. Let's put aside critiquing the rhetoric of the left on this for a moment, and focus on the policy. Are you, or anyone else here, in favor of it? If so, how do you justify that stance? To me, it is simply cruel and punishes and traumatizes innocent children. We are the bad guys here. It is so obvious if we just look in the mirror.

[Judge Jude]

I think changes should be made immediately.

[In the Corn]

We live in a time of hyperbole, JJ. Our president does it all of the time. It seems to me the real issue is that what is being done here is WRONG. It goes against all values of decency, and undermines the Republicans alleged commitment to family. What benefit is there, in this moment, when people are trying to highlight that this is bad, to focus on calling out those who are being hyperbolic in their passion to see this changed?

For the record, I agree the holocaust comparisons are very poor ones and unfortunately allow proponents of this zero tolerance policy to deflect from the real issue to highlight how hyperbolic a very small handful of people fighting this policy are being.

JJ, it would surprise me if you were in favor of this policy. Let's put aside critiquing the rhetoric of the left on this for a moment, and focus on the policy. Are you, or anyone else here, in favor of it? If so, how do you justify that stance? To me, it is simply cruel and punishes and traumatizes innocent children. We are the bad guys here. It is so obvious if we just look in the mirror.

I think what Trump is doing is abhorrent, but I don't think we can put aside critiquing the left's rhetoric because it is the same hyperbole that Trump uses. They should be ashamed to be raising this to the level of exterminating millions of Jews, gays, gypsies, etc. We do an injustice when we conflate something to far.

By no means am I saying the Dems are as wrong as Trump is in this situation. I'm just saying their rhetoric is off base and needs to be called out.

[dslaw]

I think what Trump is doing is abhorrent, but I don't think we can put aside critiquing the left's rhetoric because it is the same hyperbole that Trump uses. They should be ashamed to be raising this to the level of exterminating millions of Jews, gays, gypsies, etc. We do an injustice when we conflate something to far.

By no means am I saying the Dems are as wrong as Trump is in this situation. I'm just saying their rhetoric is off base and needs to be called out.

A couple of Republicans, Sessions was one, were on Fox yesterday defending the policy. When asked about the comparison to concentration camps the obvious answer is that we aren't gassing them or making it a labor camp. Instead Sessions' answer was "Well, it's a real exaggeration,” Sessions said of the comparison. "Of course, in Nazi Germany, they were keeping the Jews from leaving the country." (pulled from Yahoo article https://www.yahoo.com/gma/attorney-g...opstories.html that isn't as good as the first article I read but I can't find that one.)

So, yes the policy is bad and needs to be changed but I agree with ITC that comparisons to concentration camps are a little off base.

[Sour Masher]

I agree that hyperbole and conflation are wrong and sometimes even dangerous. I fight against them all the time with my students. I tell them hyperbolic people are literally worse than nazis. I always have clarify I am using the extreme example of hyperbole as a joke, because not all of them get that I'm being hyperbolic.

People doing it piss me off, not just or even primarily because they dishonor the memories of the dead, but because they allow people to deflect from the real issue at hand, which is that this policy is horrible and damaging children right now. My outrage meter is much higher for those living children than it is for the minimizing hyperbolic statements, but yeah, if that is what everyone wants to focus on, sure, hyperbole and conflation like this is wrong. I feel the same way about some folks like Minnie Driver who claim it is wrong to try to differentiate between an ass grab and a rape. But I get why people say that, because they are trying to stop people from minimizing the lesser offenses.

I imagine everyone here agrees that this policy isn't equal to nazi concentration camps, and it is inappropriate and offense to suggest that it is, but this sure feels like a deflection from actually discussing the policy.

Edit: JJ and all--I don't mean to suggest that discussing how we as a society engage in harmful hyperbole is not an important and interesting topic. It is to me. It is right in my wheelhouse, in fact. Maybe we should start a thread about it. I'd have lots to say on the subject. But I'm seeing this point made as a retort to criticism of the policy. Fox New's primary coverage of this policy is to report on this hyperbole about the policy, and talk about that, instead of the damned policy. It's a frustrating deflection at a crucial, urgent moment, when the much bigger and more pressing problem needs to be addressed first.

[cardboardbox]

Every single Democrat is a co-sponsor of the Keep Families Together Act. 49 out of 49...not ONE Republican has signed on.

Does this not count? http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/06/18/c...gether-border/

[cardboardbox]

"How is this not like the great shame of our history, the Japanese internment camps?"

I apologize on your behalf to the 100,000+ Japanese-Americans and their descendants who suffered in those years - and whose suffering is now being trivialized. Obviously the Holocaust comparisons are 1 million times more despicable, but still.

thanks JJ for being a reasonable voice here.

[Sour Masher]

Does this not count? http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/06/18/c...gether-border/

Real question--I'm happy they have this opinion (which seems the only humane opinion to have on this issue to me), but if they feel this way, what have they not signed up to co-sponsor the Act to fix this? Political reasons? Is there something in that Act that Republicans who agree families should be kept together don't like? What makes introducing the HUMANE Act better than the Keep Families Together Act that already is out there and has full Dem support, aside from who gets the credit? Frankly, at this point, I don't care what gets passed by what name. I just hope Congress changes this ASAP.

[cardboardbox]

What makes introducing the HUMANE Act better than the Keep Families Together Act that already is out there and has full Dem support, aside from who gets the credit?

that would be my guess. Political cover for the rest of the republicans by voting for a Cruz/Cornyn bill rather than a dem bill?

[Sour Masher]

that would be my guess. Political cover for the rest of the republicans by voting for a Cruz/Cornyn bill rather than a dem bill?

Like I said, if the Repubs need to have their names at the top of the Act to vote for it, so be it. I just hope they move quickly on it. I hope something gets passed ASAP. The Dems Act is already ready to go and out there.

[Sour Masher]

Maybe this strong rebuke from his own church will move Sessions on this issue: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hu...icy/ar-AAyQMPK

I think John Wesley would condemn this policy, which the United Moethodist Church equates, non-hyperbolically, I believe, with child abuse.

I'd like to think that rebukes from entire denominations of this country's dominant religion, which is a big part of Republican identity, would move the needle on this. Not to mention the poll numbers that indicate most people are against this policy, and despite Trump trying to blames Dems, most don't believe it is the Dems fault. It isn't only humane to change this, it is politically expedient.

[cardboardbox]

Trump trying to blames Dems, most don't believe it is the Dems fault.

well if we had a wall they wouldnt be getting in!