*** VD 10 Commentary Thread ***

[The Feral Slasher]

Who are the three pitchers to win 200 games by the age of 31 ? One of them shocked me

Bob Feller won 192 games by age 31 despite missing almost 4 seasons to military service.

[heyelander]

well I guessed Johnson and Young.

Then I played around with some modern guys. Gooden, Clemens, Maddux... I never would have gotten #3.

Keefe looks like he might have been close. depends on if he debuted at the start of his first season or if I can get some of his 30 year old season in.

B-R had a list of modern players wins younger than 30 and listed Feller with 192 in that list.

Hmm... now I see a different list that says by 31st birthday, and the guy I was figuring was #3 was on it with 202, so maybe I still don't know who the third is...

edit: wait, what? Mathewson made it as well. which one surprised you? Doh, now I see you said 31 anyway... so I think Keefe is in as well as the guy I was surprised by.

[The Feral Slasher]

well I guessed Johnson and Young.

Then I played around with some modern guys. Gooden, Clemens, Maddux... I never would have gotten #3.

Keefe looks like he might have been close. depends on if he debuted at the start of his first season or if I can get some of his 30 year old season in.

B-R had a list of modern players wins younger than 30 and listed Feller with 192 in that list.

Hmm... now I see a different list that says by 31st birthday, and the guy I was figuring was #3 was on it with 202, so maybe I still don't know who the third is...

edit: wait, what? Mathewson made it as well. which one surprised you?

So according to my book Cy Young, Mathewson, and Jim Hunter are the only three with 200 wins by age 31. I never would have guessed Jim Hunter. I also did not know he had diabetes and ALS (Lou Gehrig disease) and died at the age of 53. What could he have done if he had good health ? Also never realized he never played minor league baseball and his nickname was invented by Charlie Finley for marketing purposes.

Sure looks like Walter Johnson should be on the list as well, not sure why the book excluded him

[heyelander]

So according to my book Cy Young, Mathewson, and Jim Hunter are the only three with 200 wins by age 31. I never would have guessed Jim Hunter. I also did not know he had diabetes and ALS (Lou Gehrig disease) and died at the age of 53. What could he have done if he had good health ? Also never realized he never played minor league baseball and his nickname was invented by Charlie Finley for marketing purposes.

Sure looks like Walter Johnson should be on the list as well, not sure why the book excluded him

If it's 31, I think Keefe should be in as well. Maybe it's NL and AL and they aren't counting some of their stats? Yeah, they must be excluding his AA stats, where he won 41 of his team's 54 wins one season.

[The Feral Slasher]

If it's 31, I think Keefe should be in as well. Maybe it's NL and AL and they aren't counting some of their stats?

Oh well, apparently my book isn't very accurate.

[The Feral Slasher]

next up CAP ANSON 1871 TO 1898

Cap was one of the few Early Players who Family actually encourage him to play Profession Baseball - his father even wrote the Chicago team in 1869 recommending his son. Which they ignore. He then went to Notre Dame for a year then join Rockford in the Newly form NA. He then jump teams and went to Phil where he remained until 1875. When the NL formed in 1876 he Joined the Chicago White Stockings 7 years after dear old Dad wrote his letter. He remain with the club FOR THE NEXT 22 YEARS SETTING A 19TH CENTURY LOYALTY RECORD FOR A PLAYER AND 1 CLUB.

NEWS WORTHY NOTES.
^^ first player to reach 3000 hits.
*** Hit less then 300 only 3 times in his 27 seasons.
*** Mainly a line drive hitter he also could hit for Power and was particularly Dangerous with men on base. In one 12 year stretch he led the league in RbI 9 times.
*** As player manger he led the team to 5 Pennants.

FLAWS::::
Language on the field was often so vile that it evoke many fines from umpires . Rival Fans called him CRYBABY ANSON because of the way he whined and moan when things did not go his way.
Moreover he was a Racist -Because of his threat of a strike if anyone outside a white could play - several Black players were Barred before the 1885 season.- a banned that Lingered until 1947 (Jackie R)

After 1897 Chicago ask that he resigned the manager seat - he then was fired when he refused. The White Stockings Minus Anson for the first time in their 23 year history become known as the Orphans.

He is credited with zero stolen bases from 1876-1885. Over the next 10 years he stole over 200 bases, so that seems odd.

[hacko]

Next on our list John "Monte" Ward:::
As good as a player he was it was the things off the field he was most Proud of. And it all started early in his Life.

At the age of 13 he was sent to Pennsylvania State U - where he -
* help start a baseball program and where he is often credit for the development of the first curve ball - however he was kicked out for pushing an upperclassmen who was hazing him , down a flight of stairs and for stealing chickens.
The following year his Parents both died - which led him down the path of Baseball at an early age.
He started playing for the Providence Grays at 18 years of age - At 19 he won 47 games most in the Newly formed NL He had 106 wins before his 21 birthday.
**** in 1880 he just missed by 5 days - Pitched the Second Perfect game in baseball history. Interesting fact there would not be another one in the NL for another 84 years - Jim Bunning.
*** In 1881 and 1882 he played more in the Outfield then Pitch tho when he did pitch he still did it well. example in 1882 he pitch the longest complete game shutout in ML a 1-0 win that lasted 18 innings.
however his pitching days were slowly coming to and end due to an arm inj that he got sliding not from a pitching Injury. The Providence Grays thought he was done and sold him to the New York Giants

*** His arm was so bad and he wouldn't wait to let it heal he learn to throw left handed so he could play the outfield that year. After that year when the arm healed he become the everyday SS.

Monte notables::::
When he went to New York he
attended Columbia and got his Law degree - in turn he then formed the Brotherhood of Professional Baseball players - THE 1RST SPORTS LABOR UNION. and tried to fight the reserve clause. Of course this is probably why it took so long for him to get into the Hall.

*** while Barnstorming he was sold to Washington for a record 12,000 but refused to play unless he got a salary worth some of the 12,000. The deal was later nullified.
He then wanted to meet with the owners to talk about the reserve clause but they refuse. He threaten - then did start the Players league - stealing Half of the NL players. This league had no reserve clause and a Profit sharing for the Players. Even tho attendance was good at the games the League folding because The Owners were nervous that Profits were not as high as expected mainly because of the Player profit sharing. The owners met with the NL then started to sell one by one there teams to the rival League.

Monte went back to the Nl where he was player Manager for the Brooklynn team then returned to the Giants. He quit the Game at age 34 to enter the legal field and represented many players against the NL . In the last quarter of his life his passion was golf regularly playing in many Amateur tournys.

Claim to fame :
*** Only player to have over 100 wins and 2000 hits ( plus 540 SB)
*** He also holds the 3rd best Career Whip in ML history just behind Joss and walsh.
**** he also was one of the first player to play in a little Playoff game which came to be known as the world Series !!!!

Some say he even invented " A bag of Dicks"

[mjl]

And he wrote a book! And it's free!

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/base-ball/id511115727?mt=11

[heyelander]

eld... clear your PMs

[The Feral Slasher]

eld... clear your PMs

Uhhh...aren't you supposed to start a new thread for this kind of crap ?

[mjl]

If it's 31, I think Keefe should be in as well. Maybe it's NL and AL and they aren't counting some of their stats? Yeah, they must be excluding his AA stats, where he won 41 of his team's 54 wins one season.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=1884&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=14,30&filter=&players=0&sort=3,d

Definitely looks like Johnson should be. He wasn't even in an alternate league, and he played after Young and Mathewson, so it's not a deadball era thing.

another random thing I discovered while poking around that stats page: In 1890, Willie McGill pitched 183 innings for the Cleveland Infants and went 11-9. He was 16 years old.

[johnnya24]

Claim to fame :
*** Only player to have over 100 wins and 2000 hits ( plus 540 SB)
*** He also holds the 3rd best Career Whip in ML history just behind Joss and walsh.
**** he also was one of the first player to play in a little Playoff game which came to be known as the world Series !!!!
***** first old timey player to be confirmed "not a dick"

Some say he even invented " A bag of Dicks"

Fixed.

Seems like a pretty cool guy.

[hacko]

Mike "King " Kelly !878-1893
Because his career was shortened by Drinking and generally not taking care of himself - many Historians viewed him as a colorful but overrated player. The truth is that for a few years he might have been the best all round player in the game. He could play every position in the field well. Even tho he wasn't thought of as the main catcher he always seemed to be behind the plate in all of the Big games. Also sometimes he was a handful for his Managers - The year of Monte's Player league he Managed his team to the Only championship of that League.

King also Orphan at an Early age - gravitated to baseball and got his start playing Professionally when Jim McCormick had his club sign Kelly to be his catcher. Kelly was the Most Popular player in every city he played in - leading to his credit as being the first player who signed Autographs. It was said that when he was in Boston you couldn't go into a Irish Bar that didn't have a Picture of Mike Kelly Hanging over it.

Even tho He Was a good allround player.
** Twice Lead the League in Avg - 3 times in Runs and among the league leaders in SB (not because he was overly fast). It was his Genius during the game that stood out.

As a catcher he was credited being the first to use signals mainly to alert his players what Pitch was coming so they could position themselves accordingly.

As a base runner - he was credited in inventing the Hook Slide. Fans would come to the Game Chanting " Slide Kelly Slide" When ever he got on Base.
He was also credit with using the hit and run plus the first catcher to back up the first basemen.

Cheating:::
King was also credit for being one of the Great cheaters ( or trickster depending on how you see it)

***He was as already stated a base runner Legend - Most being legal using the Hook slide - His other trick was to Cut a base when the Lone umpire wasn't looking. Again credit for being the first to do this
*** He was also Credit for being first and of course the King of Fouling off Pitches (even while Bunting) - which were not counted as Strikes when he played - Allowing him to walk

WILDEST KELLY TALE: Believe it or not

Supposedly in one game -with Mike on the Bench - he saw the opposing batter hit a pop Fly ( which his catcher was not going to reach. In a Flash King yelled to ump he was replacing his teammate and made the catch. After the play he argued with a great deal of force -that there wasn't a rule against it and he had as much a right to the ball as his team mate. He did not win that argument but it is a good example of how he was always thinking and looking for the edge in the game.

Cap Anson - Love and hated him. He stole him from Cinn early in his Career but even tho they won 5 pennents (caps only 5) in the 7 season he played there he trade him to boston for 10000 (record at the time) Because of his drinking and Gambling. But even then when ask about Kelly Cap stated: " He is a Genius - Many a run has been scored because of his trickiness. He was a rattling all around man but his cleverest work was done behind the plate. He was full of trick and was never so Happy as when he was playing a trick. I never saw a man his equal - he could get away with more tricks then any man who ever wore a uniform.

Outside the Lines::
Many said he made Millions for those he played for but none for himself which was just as well as he managed what he did poorly. One year People of Boston went together to buy a house for him but 3 short years later it was sold because he didn't pay the taxes.
*** Boston Nation League Director one night remember following mike around paying 1 bar tab for $200
(around 4,000 today then going to the next bar and paying 100 tab(2000 today)
*** had a popular song Slide Kelly Slide written - also a film with the same name.
*** Some claim Casey at the Bat - was written after King Kelly
*** During his playings days He performed in Vaudeville - many tried to get him to give up baseball to follow that dream- He was performing when he got sick and died. Many times he would do Casey at the Bat as his act.
Also he was the first player to write(with help) an autobiography.

His last few years of of playing ball was in the Minor league for a friend. His friend said even tho he wasn't the great ballplayer anymore he was still better then most but no one wanted him because he was so well like and had so many friends in each town they didn't want to have to be the one to "retire Him"
His widow summed him up best; Mike was just a big overgrown Kid.

[heyelander]

Johnny, are the stats done yet?

[hacko]

Question- we know Bonds broke Aaron who broke Ruth's HR mark. Whose record did Ruth break?

Answer - Roger Conner 1880- 1897
He started his career as a hard hitting - left handed- third baseman. He might have stayed there all his career but for a dislocated shoulder forced him to 1b. He was one of the first note worthy sluggers. During his time long ball hitters were noted more for other extra base hits then homers. In particular triples.
**** Connors 233 career triples is 5th on the all time list and first among players solely active in the 19 th century.
**** He was the only player before 1900 to collect over 1000 walks
*** his 138 homers stood for 23 years after he retired.
** He hit the first grand slam in baseball history. He hit it with 2 outs and his team down 3 in the ninth. WALK OFF HOMER!!!!

He was a very tall player for his time coming in at 6' 3". When he joined the New York team they went by the Gothams but because his his great statue the team started to go by the nickname the GIANTS.
In 1886 he hit the first homer out of the polo grounds. He hit it off Old Hoss. A group of fans took up a collection and bought him a 500 dollar gold watch to honor the homer.

The most puzzling was the total neglect (EVEN BY US IN MOST DRAFTS - WE GO FOR THE SB)of his reputation after his retirement. He played in New York won several pennants and had the career totals in almost every major batting department of any player in 19th century.
He finally got inducted in 1976.
When he died he was buried in an unmarked grave until 2001 when his home town finally raised money to give him a headstone.