GOP Convention Rules!

[chancellor]

[QUOTE=Moonlight J;100365There is PLENTY of stuff that the GOP could run on in this election cycle but this is yet another desperate attempt to use lies and distortion to score points with the base. Ryan is being 110% intellectually dishonest here using random dates to make a point. I expect this from some posters, but not you, Chancellor[/QUOTE]

Uh, no, you're still missing the point. Merely because employment was down doesn't indicate the plant was shuttered or non-operational. Yes, GM announced they were planning to shut the plant in 2008. Yes, by the end of 2008, all but one line was down (my apologies for mixing up the SUV vs truck lines). However, all other lines were still available for retooling.

While campaigning, Obama did commit to retooling the Janesville plant if he was elected. Direct quote, Janesville Gazette, 2008:

Reports that the GM plant I visited in Janesville may shut down sooner than expected are a painful reminder of the tough economic times facing working families across this country. This news is also a reminder that Washington needs to finally live up to its promise to help our automakers compete in our global economy. As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville so we can build the fuel-efficient cars of tomorrow and create good-paying jobs in Wisconsin and all across America

Bold mine. Had the Obama administration agreed to retool the plant, it would still be open today. Keep in mind that while the GM bankruptcy didn't happen until June, 2009, the restructuring plan had been in place by mid-March, and CEO Wagoner was forced to resign by the end of the month. However, the restructuring plan did not actually include anything for retooling the plant, and they produced their last vehicle in the April/May 2009 timeframe and shuttered the plant.

The time when the plant was actually shuttered is key, as that's when the other GM plants are able to scavenge equipment from the closed plant, at which point the plant can't easily be restarted.

Ryan's points are accurate - Obama committed to retooling the plant if elected, the plant was still ready to be retooled after he was elected, the government led restructuring did not include Janesville, and the plant was shuttered in April/May 2009.

What's critical here was Obama's commitment to the Janesville UAW union that his administration would retool the plant. Admittedly, believing any politician is a fools errand, but many did, and after Obama was elected, many chose to stay in the area after the first lines were shut down in December, 2008, and declined transfers to other GM facilities. It wasn't until four months later they found out Janesville wouldn't be included in the government led restructuring.

[Bob Kohm]

Crock of shlt. We know, Chance-- chickens still run around the yard after they've been beheaded. The lies being told by this campaign are getting out of hand-- they've actually become central to it. The idiotic, out of context and unethical "You didn't build it" nonsense, the lie about the auto plant, the absolute garbage about Medicare, the outright lie about the work requirement to welfare-- let's have you do what you've reduced yourself to, Chance, and come back with some tiny angle on each of those to try and make people ignore the enormity of the lies that Romney/Ryan are telling. This is getting to be a lot like the Bush nuclear weapons in Iraq lie-- it's now the central narrative that everything else is built off of. But please, by all means, tell us that Ryan really didn;t mean to do this or that that really isn;t true because someone didn't actually dot an i somewhere, lol. It just adds to the GOPs lack of credibility.

:yawn:

[Lurker765]

Uh, no, you're still missing the point. Merely because employment was down doesn't indicate the plant was shuttered or non-operational. Yes, GM announced they were planning to shut the plant in 2008. Yes, by the end of 2008, all but one line was down (my apologies for mixing up the SUV vs truck lines). However, all other lines were still available for retooling.

While campaigning, Obama did commit to retooling the Janesville plant if he was elected. Direct quote, Janesville Gazette, 2008:



Bold mine. Had the Obama administration agreed to retool the plant, it would still be open today. Keep in mind that while the GM bankruptcy didn't happen until June, 2009, the restructuring plan had been in place by mid-March, and CEO Wagoner was forced to resign by the end of the month. However, the restructuring plan did not actually include anything for retooling the plant, and they produced their last vehicle in the April/May 2009 timeframe and shuttered the plant.

The time when the plant was actually shuttered is key, as that's when the other GM plants are able to scavenge equipment from the closed plant, at which point the plant can't easily be restarted.

Ryan's points are accurate - Obama committed to retooling the plant if elected, the plant was still ready to be retooled after he was elected, the government led restructuring did not include Janesville, and the plant was shuttered in April/May 2009.

What's critical here was Obama's commitment to the Janesville UAW union that his administration would retool the plant. Admittedly, believing any politician is a fools errand, but many did, and after Obama was elected, many chose to stay in the area after the first lines were shut down in December, 2008, and declined transfers to other GM facilities. It wasn't until four months later they found out Janesville wouldn't be included in the government led restructuring.

Are you kidding? Yes, I know I certainly would decide to stay in an area after losing my job on the hopes that a black man would be elected president of the United States and then somehow get my plant bought out by the government so that those officials could then decide that maybe my plant here would be restructed and opened again despite my company having decided to close it already.

And Obama did not promise to re-open this particular plant. He said ones "like" this plant. See we can both play this game as well.

You think McCain would have saved this plant? Romney? Ryan? What is your argument in this topic? That Obama promised to save this plant even before he was elected. Or that his first order of business after he was sworn in January would be to change the closure notice of a plant that wasn't even operated by the government?

This is crazy.

[Moonlight J]

They laid off 93% of the factory's workforce in 2008. 93%! You're a business man, those numbers are a death sentence.

Has anything happened since this? http://gazettextra.com/news/2011/may...ns-janesville/

Additionally, the place was making SUVs and then switched to mid-size trucks in its final months. The plant was closed in favor of the one in Orion Township, MI and that plant was given a contract for making smaller cars such as the Chevy Sonic and the Buick Verano.

From a business perspective, I see two reasons why that would have been done in a bankruptcy case:

1 - that plant was already tooled to produce small cars as it was doing the Pontiac G6 and Chevy Malibu. Less costs necessary to convert the shop to a new line
2 - The shop employs 90% hourly labor and 10% UAW workers. UAW workers demand $28 an hour while hourly labor is paid $14 an hour.

In an effort to reduce costs to come out of bankruptcy, I think any of us would have made the same call. The fact Janesville could not be retooled because the market completely collapsed in 2009 is not something anyone foresaw in 2008 when "promises" were being made.

[chancellor]

Are you kidding? Yes, I know I certainly would decide to stay in an area after losing my job on the hopes that a black man would be elected president of the United States and then somehow get my plant bought out by the government so that those officials could then decide that maybe my plant here would be restructed and opened again despite my company having decided to close it already.

Ah, then perhaps you can explain the reason why 1200 workers turned down voluntary transfers to Indiana and Kansas City in late 2008 and early 2009. I wouldn't have turned it down. I expect from your answer you wouldn't have. But an incredible number did.

After this occurred, GM made transfers mandatory - or you were off the payroll. By 2010, the last madatory transfer opportunity that I'm aware of (to Lordstown) was offered by GM.

And Obama did not promise to re-open this particular plant. He said ones "like" this plant. See we can both play this game as well.

Actually, he did. My quote is a follow-up to the one Ryan used, which Obama made in February, 2008 during the primary:

"I know that General Motors received some bad news yesterday, and I know how hard your governor has fought to keep jobs in this plant. But I also know how much progress you've made -- how many hybrids and fuel-efficient vehicles you're churning out," Obama said. "And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years."

Ryan's speech quote:

President Barack Obama came to office during an economic crisis, as he has reminded us a time or two. Those were very tough days, and any fair measure of his record has to take that into account. My home state voted for President Obama. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in Janesville, where we were about to lose a major factory.

A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day.

You asked my argument: it's simple - Jason's accused Ryan of lying on this topic. He's flat out wrong. Obama made three commitments to provide government assistance to retool the Janesville plant, first one dating all the way back to the primary. It's none too surprising - Wisconsin was a key battleground state in the primary and potentially in the general, and the Janesville facility was known to be in trouble dating all the way back to 2006. The Obama administration had the capability to provide retooling funding - they were working on the GM restructuring plan by no later than March, 2009 - and chose not to. The plant subsequently closed, roughly a year after Obama's first speech in Janesville (actually 14 months).

That doesn't mean it was a bad business decision. But to Ryan's point, it was simply another failure of the administration to make good on a specific promise they made.

[Lurker765]

yes, because Obama didn't try to save the auto industry. I guess I must concede your point and see that Obama did nothing to keep his promise to auto workers.

Sigh. I give up arguing with you.

[chancellor]

They laid off 93% of the factory's workforce in 2008. 93%! You're a business man, those numbers are a death sentence.

Not in an auto manufacturing plant, it isn't. GM had laid off similar numbers in the '80s and '90s for retooling as well. Key to an auto manufacturing plant is maintaining the assets - assembly lines, robotics, controls, and the like. And those were all intact and ready to retool once GM's restructuring began. Finish the retooling, 1500 people come back to work.

Has anything happened since this? http://gazettextra.com/news/2011/may...ns-janesville/

Not yet. If I were betting, I'd bet heavily that Janesville would be opened long before Spring Hill. The Saturn assets are the red-headed stepchild in the GM organization.

In an effort to reduce costs to come out of bankruptcy, I think any of us would have made the same call. The fact Janesville could not be retooled because the market completely collapsed in 2009 is not something anyone foresaw in 2008 when "promises" were being made.

Ah, we're reaching common ground now. Janesville could have been retooled, but it was probably a bad business decision. So despite the three-time commitment to assist in retooling the facility, once the Obama administration had the wherewithal to do so, they failed to follow through and shutter the plant because....it was a bad business decision.

Two points - Ryan was correct when he noted Obama campaigned in Janesville and stated that, as president, he'd support retooling. He was also correct in noting they didn't and the plant is shut down.

More importantly, though, is that a cold-blooded business decision to keep over 1500 workers unemployed to help save the remainder of the company appears rather Bain Capital-ish, doesn't it?

[Moonlight J]

would you have supported the administration "keeping it open" by paying the mandatory UAW wages to a UAW shop AND the re-tooling prices for that factory in the midst of a bankruptcy when the factory in Orion Township was a more sensical fiscal choice? Had the plan bypassed the better choice for Janesville, the cry of "political cronyism" would have echoed off the halls.

Compare the 2 factories on paper and ignore the circumstances; can we see why the decision was made to go to Orion and not stay in Janesville? I'm all for the work the UAW does but in a bankruptcy case, those decisions are negotiated between the courts and the client.

This is Ryan grasping at straws. He shouldn't need to do this in his home state. If Ryan is going to continue going down this path, he should be more forthright about his own actions just like his crying about the debt seems rather empty against his own voting record as well as this bull**** medicare defunding meme he's running.

I'll give him one thing - he's creating jobs by keeping the fact checkers busy as he has the highest individual Pants of Fire ranking from Politifact this campaign season while the DCCC gets that honor for a group.

[Moonlight J]

More importantly, though, is that a cold-blooded business decision to keep over 1500 workers unemployed to help save the remainder of the company appears rather Bain Capital-ish, doesn't it?

We shouldn't be confusing public and private dollars for this point. When you're taking out of the public kitty to bailout the auto industry, the entire thing has to come down to the bottom line while private decisions are done for stockholders to inflate payouts that can be written off as losses.

Again, I come back to the point that had Romney been running things in 2008, he would have shut down the entire industry. Why are we focused on the semantics of one plant when the face of the ticket would have put that outcome on every plant of GM's?

[Lurker765]

You asked my argument: it's simple - Jason's accused Ryan of lying on this topic. He's flat out wrong. Obama made three commitments to provide government assistance to retool the Janesville plant, first one dating all the way back to the primary. It's none too surprising - Wisconsin was a key battleground state in the primary and potentially in the general, and the Janesville facility was known to be in trouble dating all the way back to 2006. The Obama administration had the capability to provide retooling funding - they were working on the GM restructuring plan by no later than March, 2009 - and chose not to. The plant subsequently closed, roughly a year after Obama's first speech in Janesville (actually 14 months).

That doesn't mean it was a bad business decision. But to Ryan's point, it was simply another failure of the administration to make good on a specific promise they made.

So you're argument is that Obama did not promise the auto workers as a whole, but this exact and one plant? Is that what you are arguing?

[Bob Kohm]

Dear god. Parsing, wiggling, cheap theatrics in just trying to not get pinned. Chance as a microcosm of the Romney campaign. Now we've seen it all

Put down the rhetorical shovel, Chance, as all you're doing with this charade is proving the Democrats point about the intellectual dishonesty at the heart pf the Romney/Ryan campaign.

[chancellor]

So you're argument is that Obama did not promise the auto workers as a whole, but this exact and one plant? Is that what you are arguing?

The man stood in Janesville three times and, in essence, said the same thing - if I'm elected, I'll provide assistance to retool your plant. He made the same commitment during the primary and the general.

Mind you, I'm perfectly aware Obama's not the first, nor will he be the last, politician to run away from a campaign promise once reality stares him in the face. And, as I noted to Jason, in terms of a pure math-driven business decision, it was probably a good one for GM.

[Lurker765]

The man stood in Janesville three times and, in essence, said the same thing - if I'm elected, I'll provide assistance to retool your plant. He made the same commitment during the primary and the general.

Mind you, I'm perfectly aware Obama's not the first, nor will he be the last, politician to run away from a campaign promise once reality stares him in the face. And, as I noted to Jason, in terms of a pure math-driven business decision, it was probably a good one for GM.

Well, I guess we disagree then. I saw him in Janesville promising to help the auto industry survive. Whether it would be one particular plant that was already scheduled to close and had shed 93% of it's workers before he even stepped into office was not what the President of the USA does.

Imagine the uproar if he had singled out a specific plant within GM for immunity from cuts. Then some other plant (and Republicans) would be crying about it.

In my mind Obama kept his promise to the auto workers. If he hadn't do you think GM would have survived to this point? He saved the majority of the people he promised (I would imagine he gave this speech to about every UAW stump) since they would all have been out of work without his efforts.

But you are saying that since he didn't save this one particular plant that he is lying? When he doesn't even have the specific authority to do that in the budget? Or that the President of the United States should be actively running GM instead of doing the job he was elected to do?

[Gregg]

Dear god. Parsing, wiggling, cheap theatrics in just trying to not get pinned. Chance as a microcosm of the Romney campaign. Now we've seen it all

Put down the rhetorical shovel, Chance, as all you're doing with this charade is proving the Democrats point about the intellectual dishonesty at the heart pf the Romney/Ryan campaign.

This is like the start of the regular season in politics. It is why I hate politics. Now the lying, back biting,etc. from both parties can begin.

[JudeBaldo]

This is like the start of the regular season in politics. It is why I hate politics. Now the lying, back biting,etc. from both parties can begin.

This is exactly why I love following politics.

Besides, whatever happens and whoever wins, America will bounce back a bit.