Progress

[B-Fly]

Without snark:

And then would you fall down and worship him?

I'm not sure I'm constituted for falling down and worshipping any god.

If I were somehow convinced with unassailable evidence of G-d's (or a god's) existence, I think I'd be far more likely to engage him in debate and dialog about the tough questions such as why bad things happen to good people, than I would be to fall down and worship him or to follow his direction unquestioningly.

[Jefe]

I'm not sure I'm constituted for falling down and worshipping any god.

If I were somehow convinced with unassailable evidence of G-d's (or a god's) existence, I think I'd be far more likely to engage him in debate and dialog about the tough questions such as why bad things happen to good people, than I would be to fall down and worship him or to follow his direction unquestioningly.

I think if a person were faced with unassailable evidence of God's existence, you'd realize quickly how silly it is to think you'd be the one asking questions. Just sayin'. "Hello, creator of the universe? You got some 'splainin' to do!"

[Kevin Seitzer]

I'm not sure I'm constituted for falling down and worshipping any god.

If I were somehow convinced with unassailable evidence of G-d's (or a god's) existence, I think I'd be far more likely to engage him in debate and dialog about the tough questions such as why bad things happen to good people, than I would be to fall down and worship him or to follow his direction unquestioningly.

That makes me think of Job.

When I am confronted with unassailable evidence of God's existence, I am usually struck mute with awe. It is when God does not seem to be there at all at a time when he is most needed that I ask the tough questions.

[chancellor]

That makes me think of Job.

When I am confronted with unassailable evidence of God's existence, I am usually struck mute with awe. It is when God does not seem to be there at all at a time when he is most needed that I ask the tough questions.

Nicely said, KS.

[Bob Kohm]

Nicely said, KS.

Let's get a little Nullie with this concept.

Actually, KS & Chancellor's reactions are evidence of a system flaw. If "when confronted with unassailable evidence of God's existence" the system that you believe he created-- you-- shuts down rather than engaging along the lines you are clearly designed to, something is very wrong. That begs the question-- hardware or software fault? If we logically follow that some folks here consider themselves, the earth, etc. the "hardware" of creation, then religion is the software that has tried to interpose itself on the hardware to make it function. If the software freezes and crashes the system when it is given proof that the hardware is acting according to plan... well, suddenly God looks an awful lot like the Microsoft team that foisted Windows Vista on us.

If confronted with unassailable proof of the existence of god one would think that you should not "hide your light under the bushel basket" or whatever the exact phrase was, eh? If god made you then you would think that the logical response would be to act as he made you to act-- to use your intellect, curiosity, and explorative and analytical abilities to engage him, not to mimic a lump of granite... as according to this creation myth he made the granite too and would expect it to act like a lump of granite, making you somewhat redundant.

Here's man-kinds greatest philosophical distillation of the issue of whether or not you should be struck dumb by the presence of god. Enjoy.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Let's get a little Nullie with this concept.

Actually, KS & Chancellor's reactions are evidence of a system flaw. If "when confronted with unassailable evidence of God's existence" the system that you believe he created-- you-- shuts down rather than engaging along the lines you are clearly designed to, something is very wrong.

You completely misunderstood what I said. Striking me dumb is far from equal to shutting me down. I don't need to be talking to be functioning properly as a human being.

Surely the proper first response for a fully alive and capable human is not to pontificate in every situation? God knows I do that enough. Certainly there are times when it is good that I do not.

[Bob Kohm]

You completely misunderstood what I said. Striking me dumb is far from equal to shutting me down. I don't need to be talking to be functioning properly as a human being.

"Struck mute with awe"... ok, maybe an I/O crash, then

It all goes back to this religion-imposed concept of fawning worship of a being/concept who would have no use of worship unless we posit that it suffers from the human "flaws" of vanity and narcissisim, and, as we've been told oh so many times, god is without flaw. Being struck mute with awe, worshiping god, prostrating oneself and performing acts and rites of humility... it all seems to be beyond pointless to the point of parody, as that bit of English humour I attached pointed out. To question and engage whatever you believe god to be about life the universe and everything (ah, England...) would be the ultimate expression of humanity and thus the ultimate tribute to its creator if it existed and cared, no?

[Kevin Seitzer]

"Struck mute with awe"... ok, maybe an I/O crash, then

It all goes back to this religion-imposed concept of fawning worship of a being/concept who would have no use of worship unless we posit that it suffers from the human "flaws" of vanity and narcissisim, and, as we've been told oh so many times, god is without flaw. Being struck mute with awe, worshiping god, prostrating oneself and performing acts and rites of humility... it all seems to be beyond pointless to the point of parody, as that bit of English humour I attached pointed out. To question and engage whatever you believe god to be about life the universe and everything (ah, England...) would be the ultimate expression of humanity and thus the ultimate tribute to its creator if it existed and cared, no?

Are you going to try to understand what I mean or do you just want to lecture and denigrate me on some point that you have imagined I'm making?

[Bob Kohm]

Are you going to try to understand what I mean or do you just want to lecture and denigrate me on some point that you have imagined I'm making?

I believe that I precisely understand what you have said and am not denigrating you at all. I am pointing out that the response of "being struck dumb with awe" is tightly bound to the concept of worship, and that both are logically flawed responses to any message that a "creator god" might send.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I'm curious what those pieces of unassailable evidence were. When I hear believers say things like this, I wonder if we're not actually all that far apart, other than attributing those experiences to different things.

They don't translate well into words, which is one reason I'm reluctant to try to describe them with such. I was hoping that others would get what I was going for without me doing that. Bob has not, so maybe it wasn't as obvious as I thought.

I'm talking about things like love and nature (the Grand Canyon, the Milky Way, the quantum wave function, etc.), but it's tough to put the particular experiences into words. It's not simply about the existence of those things but with my particular interaction with them at that moment. I will try with one example, though. I will fall short of capturing the whole of it, but hopefully I will get close enough that it will still illuminate what I am getting at. My degree is in engineering physics. I specialized in semiconductor physics. I took a job out of college in the semiconductor industry doing failure analysis, figuring out what went wrong in the process to cause a computer chip to fail. One day about six years out of school, I was sitting in my work area in the lab taking measurements on a particular transistor on one such chip. I was using a parametric analyzer to control the gate voltage of the transistor and sweeping the drain voltage while measuring the drain current. This produced this beautiful set of curves on the screen of the parametric analyzer that were very similar to ones I had seen in a textbook in school. But now I knew what they meant in reality, and I was making them from this thing that was too tiny to even see with my eyes. The laws of physics and my own interaction with it were...I don't know...sublime?

[Kevin Seitzer]

I believe that I precisely understand what you have said and am not denigrating you at all. I am pointing out that the response of "being struck dumb with awe" is tightly bound to the concept of worship, and that both are logically flawed responses to any message that a "creator god" might send.

When you jump out of an airplane with a parachute, do you immediately start thinking, analyzing, and talking, or can you just experience the rush and the thrill of it?

Realizing instinctively that one is not in control of a situation is not a logically flawed response. I also didn't say that these were messages that a "creator god" sent to me. It's not necessarily a bad assumption, but I don't think it's a necessary one to start with. However, it does have a particular implication I don't like, which is that I comprehend fully who god is, how he communicates to me, and what he's telling me. I don't. Not fully.

Also, I gave the example when I first said this of Job. In that story, you think Job should have responded differently than he did? He clapped his hand over his mouth. I tend to side with the Jews there on thinking that was a wise choice.

[Gregg]

"Struck mute with awe"... ok, maybe an I/O crash, then

It all goes back to this religion-imposed concept of fawning worship of a being/concept who would have no use of worship unless we posit that it suffers from the human "flaws" of vanity and narcissisim, and, as we've been told oh so many times, god is without flaw. Being struck mute with awe, worshiping god, prostrating oneself and performing acts and rites of humility... it all seems to be beyond pointless to the point of parody, as that bit of English humour I attached pointed out. To question and engage whatever you believe god to be about life the universe and everything (ah, England...) would be the ultimate expression of humanity and thus the ultimate tribute to its creator if it existed and cared, no?

No.

Man's ego gets in the way because we want to be our own god. We are not very good at it.

God does not need us, he wants us. He loved us first. The best thing for us is to have an eternal relationship with our maker.

It is better to let God do the God stuff.

I do not mean this next comment snarky at all. Just bewildered.

I cannot tell if you are the most believing in god atheist or the least believing christian I have ever met.

[Gregg]

I would not.

The concept of worship makes just about as much sense to me as the concept of ritual human sacrifice.


Man, the questions I'd have, though...

There was a time when I did not understand worship, not really sure I do now. It seems to be a way of connecting with God on a deeper personal level.

[Gregg]

But what about the damn shellfish!!?!?!?!?! Why does he care if I eat shellfish!?!?!?! WHY???

I can't answer this one to your liking. He has given me permission to have my own version of surf and turf. That would be stone crab claws and BBQ ribs. And I thank him for that gift every time I eat them.

[Kevin Seitzer]

and actually struggle with the ramifications were there to be that kind of God

as do I