Progress

[Fresno Bob]

as do I

for me, this is my biggest argument against a God, in that I just can not/do not want to believe in an omnipotent, interested God that allows children to starve and be molested, tsunamis to wipe out entire islands, and polluters to dump poison into our water. I do not see any value in worshiping such a capricious entity, and if God is "the disinterested creator", I don't see any value in worship of that either....

[Gregg]

Gotcha. I know those kinds of experiences and have not chosen to use them as evidence of God's existence, but rather the inherent beauty and interconnectedness of our existence.

I think a lot of the differences I have with moderate believers are just in semantics. I still cannot wrap my head around the notion that there is an active an interested God, and actually struggle with the ramifications were there to be that kind of God, but I appreciate things in a similar manner to what you've described.

There are some experiences that increase faith that are difficult to not only put into the written word, but also to even explain face to face.

I guess that is where the faith argument comes in? If I posted some of those, I would probably hear "the law of large numbers" or coincidence, or my imagination or ???

I doubt that any of the atheists in here would accept some of the personal faith building experiences as evidence of any sort.

[Gregg]

for me, this is my biggest argument against a God, in that I just can not/do not want to believe in an omnipotent, interested God that allows children to starve and be molested, tsunamis to wipe out entire islands, and polluters to dump poison into our water. I do not see any value in worshiping such a capricious entity, and if God is "the disinterested creator", I don't see any value in worship of that either....

It sounds like you expect heaven on earth and since we do not have that you assume no God. Maybe we just do not have a correct view of the ramifications of our sin nature?

[OaklandA's]

Maybe we just do not have a correct view of the ramifications of our sin nature?

What is this supposed to mean? That the thousands killed by the tsunami were killed because of their own sin? Or that thousands of innocents were killed because of our sin? What exactly are you suggesting?

[Fresno Bob]

It sounds like you expect heaven on earth and since we do not have that you assume no God. Maybe we just do not have a correct view of the ramifications of our sin nature?

I refuse to punish or burden innocent children with "original sin", and no sane God should either...

[heyelander]

What is this supposed to mean? That the thousands killed by the tsunami were killed because of their own sin? Or that thousands of innocents were killed because of our sin? What exactly are you suggesting?

Reading this over... I sometimes don't think you are too far off. I don't believe g_d sends plagues or whatever to punish us. He's not killing soldiers because we have homosexuals in the country, but the sins of not keeping nuclear plants up to date, or wells up to code, or deforestation, or climate change or over population or whatever are visited on us. I can't attribute earth quakes, sometimes **** just happens, but perhaps we do pay for ours and others sins.

[Kevin Seitzer]

So I guess you pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow, which is cool by me. I hope that this flows over to your views on other things touched on in the Bible, like homosexuality.

I believe that a Christian who wants to engage deeply with god, his faith, and the world we live in ought to ponder the meaning of the narrative undergirding the scriptures, and then, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer said (re-quoting Martin Luther), that if one is going to sin, one ought to sin boldly. For him, this meant trying to kill Hitler, though murder (and even hatred) was a sin. God, what I know about him, through the lens of Jesus and the Christian perspective, is not primarily about avoidance of sin. To the extent that is about that, it's only as a means to an end, and often that means (sin avoidance) doesn't get you anywhere close to the right end. Our actions all have consequences, but a stone-cold, dead heart inside is worse than most or all of them. So sin boldly. God is bigger than that and there is far more at stake than an accounting of sins.

Edit to add: I'm not arguing that people should purposely choose to do what they know is wrong. I'm arguing that if deciding about whether eating shellfish or having homosexual relations are sins is getting in the way of something far more important, it might be time to re-consider the larger narrative.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Dang it, heye, why did you delete that? I liked what you wrote. It's not a complete answer, but it's a part answer that too often gets ignored. Sins that impact other people are not just the ones that get airplay. In fact, too many of the ones that don't get discussed are ones that hit too close to home and are things like those you listed.

[Kevin Seitzer]

for me, this is my biggest argument against a God, in that I just can not/do not want to believe in an omnipotent, interested God that allows children to starve and be molested, tsunamis to wipe out entire islands, and polluters to dump poison into our water. I do not see any value in worshiping such a capricious entity, and if God is "the disinterested creator", I don't see any value in worship of that either....

Absolutely the elephant in the room. No doubt.

When I talk about words failing for trying to describe my encounters where an aspect of god's existence was shoved in my face, for describing my thoughts on the problem of evil, they may do even less justice. I believe actions are very often a much more suitable answer for the problem of evil than are words. The Jewish and Christian scriptures don't really give a philosophy of evil--they give partial answers, but not a comprehensive answer to the question of "Why?" Rather they are a record of what God has done and is doing about the problem of evil.

[B-Fly]

I think if a person were faced with unassailable evidence of God's existence, you'd realize quickly how silly it is to think you'd be the one asking questions. Just sayin'. "Hello, creator of the universe? You got some 'splainin' to do!"

Right. I have a much easier time being awestruck by the beauty and interconnectedness of nature when one doesn't attribute it to a supposedly omnipotent deity. Once one assumes/accepts the existence of an omnipotent deity, I'm frankly less amazed by the beauty, because hey, it's easy for an omnipotent deity, than I am disturbed by the needless pain and suffering. I can accept pain and suffering a heck of a lot easier when I don't believe that anyone acting alone has the power to eliminate it. An omnipotent deity, on the other hand, has a lot to answer for. You say I'd quickly realize that it is silly to think I'd have some tough questions for an omnipotent deity. I guess you mean I'd be cowed by fear, and maybe that would be smart, because an omnipotent deity who allows such great suffering probably isn't all that keen on being challenged. But I think I'd be the cat killed by his curiosity. I couldn't not pose those challenges.

[B-Fly]

Dang it, heye, why did you delete that? I liked what you wrote. It's not a complete answer, but it's a part answer that too often gets ignored. Sins that impact other people are not just the ones that get airplay. In fact, too many of the ones that don't get discussed are ones that hit too close to home and are things like those you listed.

Agreed. Heye's post was a good start.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Agreed. Heye's post was a good start.

He reminded me a lot of the Jewish prophets. Not that heye was calling down woe from heaven, per se, but in the type of things he was identifying as sins.

The prophet Micah:
"Woe to those who plan iniquity, to those who plot evil on their beds!
At morning’s light they carry it out because it is in their power to do it.
They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them.
They defraud people of their homes, they rob them of their inheritance."

The prophet Malachi:
"'So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,' says Yahweh Almighty."

The prophet Isaiah:
"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."

[regular-guy]

Koresh and Jones essentially claimed to be Messiahs, and they have clearly been proven they were evil men, possibly insane (some would say possessed).

They did not spark a movement that is continuing to grow by leaps and bounds throughout North and South America, in multiple languages--and it hasn't even been 50 years since they lived. We also know for a fact that these two men abused women, and possibly underaged women. The allegations of Jesus taking advantage of women didn't surface until sometime in the third century. In contrast with Koresh and JJones, Christianity was on at least 3 continents, among many different people groups (defined by specific language and culture) in less than 50 years; at current growth, will have completely circumnavigated the globe back to Israel in the next 20 years or so.

[Kevin Seitzer]

You say I'd quickly realize that it is silly to think I'd have some tough questions for an omnipotent deity. I guess you mean I'd be cowed by fear, and maybe that would be smart, because an omnipotent deity who allows such great suffering probably isn't all that keen on being challenged. But I think I'd be the cat killed by his curiosity. I couldn't not pose those challenges.

What do you think about the example of Job? I still come back to that as the fundamental writing on this topic.

I don't consider that the only valid perspective or response about our interaction with god, but it certainly seems like a good starting point when we are questioning his injustices. There is a lot of wisdom in the story of Job.

[heyelander]

if fly wants to reinstate my post he's welcome to... if only to prove I'm not a prophet.