Little League Sportsmanship

[Fresno Bob]

Where's the line? The line is where this stops being a game and becomes something else, something more real than a game and uglier than a game. That's where the line is. Otherwise, being an asshole and abusing and exploiting loophole rules is just being an asshole. So you tell us, Griff-- when does youth baseball, played for nothing but fun and maybe a trophy, stop being a game? When does it become more important to come home with a $35 trophy than it is to come home with a group of kids who have honor and the right to be proud of the way they played the game? When does it become more important to teach kids to mimic the very worst qualities of lawyers than to be kids?

One of the best coaches my son Marcus ever had was a guy by the name of Mike Winters, who coached his last season of Fall Rookie baseball when he was eight. The Volcanoes were up against the Bulls, coached by a guy who epitomized everything wrong in youth sports-- a former college baseball star who blew out his arm and got bitter over the whole thing. He was busy making his own son's life a misery of ridiculous expectations and crushing disappointment, which was all the more a shame because Brock was a hell of a young ballplayer and a nice kid even if he could never do enough to quell his Dad's Great Santini act. In Rookie ball there are no umps-- it's machine pitch with a Louisville Slugger Blue Flame catapult machine, three swinging strikes or five good pitches and you're out, with the coaches calling the outs and fair/foul lines in the field. Well, Brock's Dad was out near third base when my son hit a screaming line shot down the left field line with runners on second and third. There was no question that the ball was fair, but the coach loudly called it foul freezing the runners while his left fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in to the infield. One of our team's Dads started to go ballistic when Mike told him to ease up. Mike had served as an armor officer in the '91 War and then served two tours as an infantry battalion commander in the next Iraqi War. Mike looked at Mark and told him that no matter how the game turned out nobody was gonna die, nobody was gonna have to be flown out in a chopper or see their friend get blown up by an IED because this was just a game of baseball. Marcus struck out that at bat; the kid after him hit a shot into the gap that scored the two runs although we went on to lose the game.

It's a freaking game,not a cause to teach children to behave like assholes, Griff. That's the only fucking line that matters.

I'd hope that I'd taught my son enough to yell, "hey bush league, you got money on the game or are you just blind?" or something to that effect at the Great Santini....but never at an actual ump.

[Judge Jude]

My point is this - you have fundamentally changed the game by placing a time limit on the game. Softball games (both fast and slow) have rules instituted to try and eliminate some of the clock management things. I get that you all dont like the stall tactic - in football its taking every second between plays, not passing and ensuring the clock continues to run.

Would I support the fake injury or the laying on a guy to keep him from getting back to the huddle? No I would not support those. Why - because they are against the rules. Hell the NFL penalizes teams if they have an injury or fake injury in the last two minutes of a game. So it is against the rules of the game

As to Jefe's scenario 12 minutes is really not a long time and again the pitcher still has to make pitches to the batter - so if the offense of Jefe's team performs the tactic is really a moot point and quite honestly works against the team that ultimately won.

Baseball with time limits invite the strategy of managing the clock - you may not like it (and from a baseball purist position I understand the outrage) but just because you dont think baseball is supposed to be played that way - the game has been fundamentally changed by introducing a clock. By introducing the clock, the clock creates strategies that are normally foreign to the game.

Baldgriff,
Iv'e been a fan of your posts for a long time.
And I understand so much of your instincts here, I think.

But I also think you got stuck on an irrelevant FB analogy and a general, reasonable, but off-topic concern about helicopter parents not wanting to have their kids ever lose.

And you shoehorned it into this bad example, imo.

Any chance you can rethink the whole thing?

[overkill94]

My point is this - you have fundamentally changed the game by placing a time limit on the game. Softball games (both fast and slow) have rules instituted to try and eliminate some of the clock management things. I get that you all dont like the stall tactic - in football its taking every second between plays, not passing and ensuring the clock continues to run.

Would I support the fake injury or the laying on a guy to keep him from getting back to the huddle? No I would not support those. Why - because they are against the rules. Hell the NFL penalizes teams if they have an injury or fake injury in the last two minutes of a game. So it is against the rules of the game

As to Jefe's scenario 12 minutes is really not a long time and again the pitcher still has to make pitches to the batter - so if the offense of Jefe's team performs the tactic is really a moot point and quite honestly works against the team that ultimately won.

Baseball with time limits invite the strategy of managing the clock - you may not like it (and from a baseball purist position I understand the outrage) but just because you dont think baseball is supposed to be played that way - the game has been fundamentally changed by introducing a clock. By introducing the clock, the clock creates strategies that are normally foreign to the game.

So what are the kids really learning then?

My dad's been coaching 10-12 year olds for 22 years now in the majors division and most years an all-star team. Most games have a time limit (probably not championship games or certain tournaments) so there have been instances where he would slow things down a little bit at the end of a close game, but nothing outrageous. Just this year they changed the rules to allow lead-offs, pick-offs, etc. so I'd be curious to find out if he ran into anything like this.

The problem with it being 11-year-olds is that they don't always have the pride or baseball sense to know that they're coming off as a chump. If this were somehow possible in a high school game, the pitcher's own coach would probably yell at him and if the coach somehow instructed him to do it then there would probably be some beanballs in their next match-up.

[baldgriff]

Baldgriff,
Iv'e been a fan of your posts for a long time.
And I understand so much of your instincts here, I think.

But I also think you got stuck on an irrelevant FB analogy and a general, reasonable, but off-topic concern about helicopter parents not wanting to have their kids ever lose.

And you shoehorned it into this bad example, imo.

Any chance you can rethink the whole thing?

Honestly - part of my role in this conversation has been about playing the devil's advocate and trying to get guys to clearly define where the line is. Bob made an attempt with the expected vigor and vitriol and insinuation that I was promoting douche baggery and assholeness.

I am certainly able to understand parents frustration when coaches use the rules (or loopholes as some call them) as a weapon. I dont honestly know if 11 years old is where the line is, but I do know that at some point understanding the rules and being able to use those rules to either distract the other team or create some competitive edge is fair. I know when my softball team goes to worlds I fully anticipate that when someone swings a bat this is not approved for play I can get the out or I can use the same guy as a pinch hitter for the same guy twice in the rule set we are playing under.

These types of things may not be the same as throwing over to first a number of times, but when I am playing competitively we will play by the rules as they are written. They are written to define the way the game is to be played and honestly I have no issue using a bit of gamesmanship. Its part of the competition.

Edit to add:
I still will maintain that adding a time limit to baseball fundamentally changes that game and as I have stated brings clock management into a game that is not supposed to be concerned with the clock.

This fundamental change is very reason this issue has come to the forefront. Also, while many of you dont accept my assertion, I will still maintain that due to the fundamental change of the game and our expectation that in baseball these things shouldnt affect the outcome - if this had been a football game where they ran the winning team ran the clock down or in basketball the winning team won by implementing the 4 corners for an entire quarter - we wouldnt be having this discussion - because our expectations about the way the game normally is played includes implementing strategies that run the clock out while limiting the other teams opportunity to score.

So while I can step back and say - yeah ok its not the greatest way to win a game. I have attempted to point out that the strategy implemented realistically could just as easily backfired because the pitcher still has to make pitches and batters still have the chance to hit. Additionally, if they effectively hit the ball they could score the runs to still win.

So ok - its not a great way to win......... I would also say its a flawed strategy.

[Judge Jude]

Thank you for your response.

[baldgriff]

Thank you for your response.

Of course..............

Always happy to bury a hatchet..............

[umjewman]

Honestly - part of my role in this conversation has been about playing the devil's advocate and trying to get guys to clearly define where the line is. Bob made an attempt with the expected vigor and vitriol and insinuation that I was promoting douche baggery and assholeness.

I am certainly able to understand parents frustration when coaches use the rules (or loopholes as some call them) as a weapon. I dont honestly know if 11 years old is where the line is, but I do know that at some point understanding the rules and being able to use those rules to either distract the other team or create some competitive edge is fair. I know when my softball team goes to worlds I fully anticipate that when someone swings a bat this is not approved for play I can get the out or I can use the same guy as a pinch hitter for the same guy twice in the rule set we are playing under.

These types of things may not be the same as throwing over to first a number of times, but when I am playing competitively we will play by the rules as they are written. They are written to define the way the game is to be played and honestly I have no issue using a bit of gamesmanship. Its part of the competition.

Edit to add:
I still will maintain that adding a time limit to baseball fundamentally changes that game and as I have stated brings clock management into a game that is not supposed to be concerned with the clock.

This fundamental change is very reason this issue has come to the forefront. Also, while many of you dont accept my assertion, I will still maintain that due to the fundamental change of the game and our expectation that in baseball these things shouldnt affect the outcome - if this had been a football game where they ran the winning team ran the clock down or in basketball the winning team won by implementing the 4 corners for an entire quarter - we wouldnt be having this discussion - because our expectations about the way the game normally is played includes implementing strategies that run the clock out while limiting the other teams opportunity to score.

So while I can step back and say - yeah ok its not the greatest way to win a game. I have attempted to point out that the strategy implemented realistically could just as easily backfired because the pitcher still has to make pitches and batters still have the chance to hit. Additionally, if they effectively hit the ball they could score the runs to still win.

So ok - its not a great way to win......... I would also say its a flawed strategy.

You could theoretically stop a four corners offense with aggressive defense. In the football analogy, they only get three downs of stalling to run the clock down before having to punt it back on fourth. In baseball, if they throw over to first base 42 times, there's nothing you can really do. Maybe after they retired a batter they should have done a reeeeeaaaaaaalllllllly long around the horn to incorporate the outfielders too. Or after one out, made two separate visits to the coaching mound and changed pitchers to kill even more time. To me, the analogy of a football player faking an injury is far more similar than a four corners strategy in basketball.

It's within the rules, that's fine. But the rule is clearly not meant for this purpose, but rather to free up the field for the next game or prevent kids from playing at midnight. If my son is ever on a team that wins this way, I would not be proud of the victory at all.

[dslaw]

At age 11 my kid has about a .0000001% chance of becoming a pro player. That age is for learning and enjoying the game. If he was good enough to go to Indiana and play my thoughts would be that a good coach can help him become a pro player. I still don't know about a coach like Knight. I would rather him go to some other high profile coach but if Knight was the only one offering a scholarship I would have to talk to my kid about pros and cons.

[Steve]

My other thought is that if at age 11, it's about learning the game - don't keep score.

[swampdragon]

My other thought is that if at age 11, it's about learning the game - don't keep score.

but if you dont keep score - how will I know that my son is a winner - if he is a winner then I am a winner - WOO WOO

[baldgriff]

My buddy's 5 year old plays in a coach pitch league and they dont keep score. Its about learning how to hit catch and throw. Everyone bats each inning, and the last kid up hits a Home Run - no matter if its a 5 foot bloop.

I get why they do it at that level - but we both kind of laugh about it.

[Judge Jude]

My nephew was 6 when he came home and my sister asked him if he won.

"We tied - again," the kid replied. "Every single game, the same thing happens."

lol

[baldgriff]

That is funny - but some part of me is irked too. This 6 year old understands that when we play games there is usually a winner and is frustrtated that every game ends up in a tie. Ties are no fun!

[Kevin Seitzer]

That is funny - but some part of me is irked too. This 6 year old understands that when we play games there is usually a winner and is frustrtated that every game ends up in a tie. Ties are no fun!

Oh, me, too. I'm a little surprised they are doing that in a coach pitch league. For my son it was just the first season of T ball that they did that. Kids at age 4-5 can't throw any runner out, so it's a little (or a lot) stupid to make them try. But by the time you are to age 6, they start to be able to do some of the basics of fielding, even if they can't do it remotely reliably yet. With some diligent practice, you can have a semblance of an actual fielding team, where they actually occasionally record multiple outs in the field in a single inning, by the end of a season with 6 year olds. At that point, it makes a lot more sense to keep score.