Originally posted by Bob Kohm
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"You know what's wrong with America? If I lovingly tongue a woman's nipple in a movie, it gets an "NC-17" rating, if I chop it off with a machete, it's an "R". That's what's wrong with America, man...."--Dennis Hopper
"One should judge a man mainly from his depravities. Virtues can be faked. Depravities are real." -- Klaus Kinski
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Originally posted by baldgriff View PostMy point is this - you have fundamentally changed the game by placing a time limit on the game. Softball games (both fast and slow) have rules instituted to try and eliminate some of the clock management things. I get that you all dont like the stall tactic - in football its taking every second between plays, not passing and ensuring the clock continues to run.
Would I support the fake injury or the laying on a guy to keep him from getting back to the huddle? No I would not support those. Why - because they are against the rules. Hell the NFL penalizes teams if they have an injury or fake injury in the last two minutes of a game. So it is against the rules of the game
As to Jefe's scenario 12 minutes is really not a long time and again the pitcher still has to make pitches to the batter - so if the offense of Jefe's team performs the tactic is really a moot point and quite honestly works against the team that ultimately won.
Baseball with time limits invite the strategy of managing the clock - you may not like it (and from a baseball purist position I understand the outrage) but just because you dont think baseball is supposed to be played that way - the game has been fundamentally changed by introducing a clock. By introducing the clock, the clock creates strategies that are normally foreign to the game.
Iv'e been a fan of your posts for a long time.
And I understand so much of your instincts here, I think.
But I also think you got stuck on an irrelevant FB analogy and a general, reasonable, but off-topic concern about helicopter parents not wanting to have their kids ever lose.
And you shoehorned it into this bad example, imo.
Any chance you can rethink the whole thing?finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84
SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
C Stallings 2, Casali 1
1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1
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Originally posted by baldgriff View PostMy point is this - you have fundamentally changed the game by placing a time limit on the game. Softball games (both fast and slow) have rules instituted to try and eliminate some of the clock management things. I get that you all dont like the stall tactic - in football its taking every second between plays, not passing and ensuring the clock continues to run.
Would I support the fake injury or the laying on a guy to keep him from getting back to the huddle? No I would not support those. Why - because they are against the rules. Hell the NFL penalizes teams if they have an injury or fake injury in the last two minutes of a game. So it is against the rules of the game
As to Jefe's scenario 12 minutes is really not a long time and again the pitcher still has to make pitches to the batter - so if the offense of Jefe's team performs the tactic is really a moot point and quite honestly works against the team that ultimately won.
Baseball with time limits invite the strategy of managing the clock - you may not like it (and from a baseball purist position I understand the outrage) but just because you dont think baseball is supposed to be played that way - the game has been fundamentally changed by introducing a clock. By introducing the clock, the clock creates strategies that are normally foreign to the game.
My dad's been coaching 10-12 year olds for 22 years now in the majors division and most years an all-star team. Most games have a time limit (probably not championship games or certain tournaments) so there have been instances where he would slow things down a little bit at the end of a close game, but nothing outrageous. Just this year they changed the rules to allow lead-offs, pick-offs, etc. so I'd be curious to find out if he ran into anything like this.
The problem with it being 11-year-olds is that they don't always have the pride or baseball sense to know that they're coming off as a chump. If this were somehow possible in a high school game, the pitcher's own coach would probably yell at him and if the coach somehow instructed him to do it then there would probably be some beanballs in their next match-up.
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Originally posted by Judge Jude View PostBaldgriff,
Iv'e been a fan of your posts for a long time.
And I understand so much of your instincts here, I think.
But I also think you got stuck on an irrelevant FB analogy and a general, reasonable, but off-topic concern about helicopter parents not wanting to have their kids ever lose.
And you shoehorned it into this bad example, imo.
Any chance you can rethink the whole thing?
I am certainly able to understand parents frustration when coaches use the rules (or loopholes as some call them) as a weapon. I dont honestly know if 11 years old is where the line is, but I do know that at some point understanding the rules and being able to use those rules to either distract the other team or create some competitive edge is fair. I know when my softball team goes to worlds I fully anticipate that when someone swings a bat this is not approved for play I can get the out or I can use the same guy as a pinch hitter for the same guy twice in the rule set we are playing under.
These types of things may not be the same as throwing over to first a number of times, but when I am playing competitively we will play by the rules as they are written. They are written to define the way the game is to be played and honestly I have no issue using a bit of gamesmanship. Its part of the competition.
Edit to add:
I still will maintain that adding a time limit to baseball fundamentally changes that game and as I have stated brings clock management into a game that is not supposed to be concerned with the clock.
This fundamental change is very reason this issue has come to the forefront. Also, while many of you dont accept my assertion, I will still maintain that due to the fundamental change of the game and our expectation that in baseball these things shouldnt affect the outcome - if this had been a football game where they ran the winning team ran the clock down or in basketball the winning team won by implementing the 4 corners for an entire quarter - we wouldnt be having this discussion - because our expectations about the way the game normally is played includes implementing strategies that run the clock out while limiting the other teams opportunity to score.
So while I can step back and say - yeah ok its not the greatest way to win a game. I have attempted to point out that the strategy implemented realistically could just as easily backfired because the pitcher still has to make pitches and batters still have the chance to hit. Additionally, if they effectively hit the ball they could score the runs to still win.
So ok - its not a great way to win......... I would also say its a flawed strategy.Last edited by baldgriff; 06-25-2013, 11:49 PM.It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address
"When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra
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Thank you for your response.finished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84
SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
C Stallings 2, Casali 1
1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1
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Originally posted by Judge Jude View PostThank you for your response.
Always happy to bury a hatchet..............It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address
"When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra
Comment
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Originally posted by baldgriff View PostHonestly - part of my role in this conversation has been about playing the devil's advocate and trying to get guys to clearly define where the line is. Bob made an attempt with the expected vigor and vitriol and insinuation that I was promoting douche baggery and assholeness.
I am certainly able to understand parents frustration when coaches use the rules (or loopholes as some call them) as a weapon. I dont honestly know if 11 years old is where the line is, but I do know that at some point understanding the rules and being able to use those rules to either distract the other team or create some competitive edge is fair. I know when my softball team goes to worlds I fully anticipate that when someone swings a bat this is not approved for play I can get the out or I can use the same guy as a pinch hitter for the same guy twice in the rule set we are playing under.
These types of things may not be the same as throwing over to first a number of times, but when I am playing competitively we will play by the rules as they are written. They are written to define the way the game is to be played and honestly I have no issue using a bit of gamesmanship. Its part of the competition.
Edit to add:
I still will maintain that adding a time limit to baseball fundamentally changes that game and as I have stated brings clock management into a game that is not supposed to be concerned with the clock.
This fundamental change is very reason this issue has come to the forefront. Also, while many of you dont accept my assertion, I will still maintain that due to the fundamental change of the game and our expectation that in baseball these things shouldnt affect the outcome - if this had been a football game where they ran the winning team ran the clock down or in basketball the winning team won by implementing the 4 corners for an entire quarter - we wouldnt be having this discussion - because our expectations about the way the game normally is played includes implementing strategies that run the clock out while limiting the other teams opportunity to score.
So while I can step back and say - yeah ok its not the greatest way to win a game. I have attempted to point out that the strategy implemented realistically could just as easily backfired because the pitcher still has to make pitches and batters still have the chance to hit. Additionally, if they effectively hit the ball they could score the runs to still win.
So ok - its not a great way to win......... I would also say its a flawed strategy.
It's within the rules, that's fine. But the rule is clearly not meant for this purpose, but rather to free up the field for the next game or prevent kids from playing at midnight. If my son is ever on a team that wins this way, I would not be proud of the victory at all.
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At age 11 my kid has about a .0000001% chance of becoming a pro player. That age is for learning and enjoying the game. If he was good enough to go to Indiana and play my thoughts would be that a good coach can help him become a pro player. I still don't know about a coach like Knight. I would rather him go to some other high profile coach but if Knight was the only one offering a scholarship I would have to talk to my kid about pros and cons.
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My buddy's 5 year old plays in a coach pitch league and they dont keep score. Its about learning how to hit catch and throw. Everyone bats each inning, and the last kid up hits a Home Run - no matter if its a 5 foot bloop.
I get why they do it at that level - but we both kind of laugh about it.It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address
"When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra
Comment
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My nephew was 6 when he came home and my sister asked him if he won.
"We tied - again," the kid replied. "Every single game, the same thing happens."
lolfinished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84
SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
C Stallings 2, Casali 1
1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1
Comment
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That is funny - but some part of me is irked too. This 6 year old understands that when we play games there is usually a winner and is frustrtated that every game ends up in a tie. Ties are no fun!It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years and we must stop it.
Bill Clinton 1995, State of the Union Address
"When they go low - we go High" great motto - too bad it was a sack of bullshit. DNC election mantra
Comment
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Originally posted by baldgriff View PostThat is funny - but some part of me is irked too. This 6 year old understands that when we play games there is usually a winner and is frustrtated that every game ends up in a tie. Ties are no fun!"Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.'"
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