Little League Sportsmanship

[baldgriff]

ok, you buy that at age 11, that's the real point. the other stuff is just touchy-feely, I guess.

how about age 6?
age 4?

is there any age at which playing to win is not quite the only lesson being taught?

geesh.

I will be very honest with you guys here. When my son was 4 and we played games like Candy Land or Chutes & Ladders or Checkers or whatever the game was - I never let him beat me. Winning the game because you won is why winning feels good and losing is how we learn to improve our skills. How many of you have played chess and when you see a move that is critically bad to you let someone put the piece back if they are 11 or 16 or 21? I had friends that never had the kids go down the chutes in chutes and ladders because their kids cried.... what did that teach them?

I coached instructional baseball when my son was learning to play. When those seasons started I had a parent meeting to level set whats going on. I told the parents that not all kids will pitch, and kids who cant make the throw from 3rd to 1st wont play 3rd base. Why? So the parent knew I would not put the kids in positions where they wouldnt be able to succeed. I taught kids that they needed to stay alert and always know what was going on. They also needed to be engaged in the game. My sons best friend was on the team and I had him playing SS, three straight slow ground balls got hit to him and he never moved to attempt to make a play. When the inning was done I asked him what was going on - he said he was upset with kids on the team and decided he shouldnt try. I had someone else play SS the rest of the inning and put him in the OF. What happened the next night when Im out mowing the lawn? His father asked why I pulled his son from the position. My response was that his son was acting selfish and had decided not to play as part of the team. If I keep the kid at SS, what does he learn?

Im pretty sure that the parents of the team that won the game were not very upset with the win. By the way, how many opportunities did the losing team miss? How many did they leave on base? How many errors did they make before the last inning? How many kids struck out looking or swung at ball four? What happens if the pitcher throws the ball away when trying to stall? What happens if now that the kid is worried about other things than pitching he cant throw a strike? Lots of variables here that could have changed the final outcome of the game - even with the strategic tactic used by the manager (one that again could have just as easily backfired).

A game is a compilation of multiple events that determine at the very end a winner. There is not one individual action only that determines the outcome in the game of baseball. When you are playing competitively, the game is ultimately about winning.

These games we play are where we learn many life lessons - The biggest life lesson is:

1 - Life is not fair
2 - See rule one and learn to deal with it.

I understand as parents we want to protect our kids from disappointment and hurt. Sports and games are great ways for kids to learn that life is not always fair, that we are not always going to succeed, that though we may not succeed this time - one can learn from this and get better. That pain can be overcome and can make us stronger.

Call me old school, call me insensitive, call me psychotic - At some point parents thought that every child should win a trophy or plaque or medal - show up and get a trophy. What did that teach those kids? It taught them that they didnt have to work hard to get a reward. What kind of lesson is that?

I am sure that I again may get hammered for the opinion I just posted and I can live with that.

[Frank]

OK Not an end of the season tournament - but this is "Select Ball". These kids are not here just learning fundamentals like how to catch. They are playing competitive baseball - even if it 11 year old baseball these are tournaments where you are seeded based on how you do in the 2 games. Then on Sunday you only get to keep playing if you win. Keep in mind here, as you said, Im the home team with 12 minutes left. I would say that its a pretty big gamble to ask kids to keep throwing over to first when someone gets on. Throw the ball away and now you have kids running around the infield. If you give up the lead - you only have one at bat to make it up.

When kids are playing at a competitive level that is higher than rec ball, the kids are there to win. Its the only way you get to keep playing, and win the trophy. You may not like the method that the coach used - it definitely had some risk if the kids throw the ball around - that said it was an effective way to win and keep playing.

You may not like it, but when you play competitively you play within the rules and occasionally use them to your advantage. Ultimately, its a game and the point is to win.

Bull***T.....I 100% disagree with your context for this age group.....
A crucial responsibility of teaching/coaching young "children" sports is instilling the need to practice sportsmanship and working with others as a team - NOT EXPLOITATION of holes in the rules set up.....It's all about FUNDAMENTALS at this age .

Win With Class - Lose With Dignity

[Judge Jude]

Baldgriff,
You have an out-of-context general philosophical concern that I would say has merit.

But your fervor for that sentiment is leading you to try to make this case of a lunatic manager be your standard bearer.
I would suggest rethinking that strategy - not because it might be unpopular but because this example is a poor one for your more defensible general point....

[Frank]

11-yr-old baseball. Tournament trophy day, single elimination. The games have a time limit, when it expires you finish the inning.

You're the home team, you have a 4-1 lead when you start a new inning with about 12 minutes left in the game.

So you tell your pitcher to stall. Step off the mound a ton. Once you let a runner on 1B, throw over there 5-6 times (as opposed to normal times, when you might throw over there once or twice an entire game.)

Then in the bottom of the inning, have your batters take every pitch until they have to swing.

Good gamesmanship? Poor sportsmanship? Both? Neither?

Since "we" are all attempting to be honest here - I would suggest this "coach" was likely a marginal to average athlete that spent many a recess in a headlock .......given a choice, this clown would never have coached one of mine.

[Pogues]

I will be very honest with you guys here. When my son was 4 and we played games like Candy Land or Chutes & Ladders or Checkers or whatever the game was - I never let him beat me. Winning the game because you won is why winning feels good and losing is how we learn to improve our skills. How many of you have played chess and when you see a move that is critically bad to you let someone put the piece back if they are 11 or 16 or 21? I had friends that never had the kids go down the chutes in chutes and ladders because their kids cried.... what did that teach them?

My wife and I did the same thing with my son. He was never "given" a win, when he won he earned it. I believe he learned much more by us playing against him to win, and when he won he knew he earned the victory.

We played a Scene-It game today, and he never left the start space. I was cheering for him to get off start and get moving, but he never could. And he loved playing the game the whole time.

I think some of the actions were uncalled for...the ridiculous number of throws to first for instance...but if played within the rules set forth by the tournament...well maybe the tournament organizers need to reconsider their rules.

[overkill94]

I'm all for instilling that winner instinct as soon as the competition gets serious, but tiptoeing around the rules is both bad karma and the wrong lesson to teach the kids. Time limits are used because it's only a weekend deal so they don't want the championship game being played at midnight, so it's not like a football team milking the clock by running it over and over in the 4th quarter.

[hacko]

The umpires really can't enforce a "no stall" rule, other than through the existing rules of baseball. An ump can't tell a kid not to take a pitch, or not to throw to first. But a coach can, just by telling them to play the same way they did in the first inning.

[/QUOTE]

THAT IS NOT REALLY TRUE:
i UMP MANY YEARS AGO - and if I remember correct they do have a rule in place if either team makes a farce of the game. I even had to use it once.

Mens Fastpitch tourn - 1 team loaded up with players from another team(ringers) Those players were playing in another tourney - in the next town. They started the game with 10 batters (DH) but 4 players had to leave in 5th inning to make their game. they only had 3 players on the bench - meaning if anyone got on base the Dh was coming to bat . They had no one for him so they would had to forfeit. Both team figure that out so the other team would walk a batter. They tried to get him thrown out stealing (other team would not bite) then they tried to leave the base too soon and when it wasn't called They stormed out of the dugout and argued their player should be called out. Home plate umpire called the game using the Farce Rule.

That was with grown men - in a kids tourney if it was grossly plain to see stalling tactics as an ump I would have tried to quietly and diplomatically changed their tactics.

[dslaw]

I could see this in MLB if there were a time limit. 11 year old kids need to learn to play the game. Learning different positions and the rules are more important than winning at that age. I think the coach was a minor star in high school who thought he should have been drafted and this is his path to success. I doubt there are 10 future pros on that team that need to learn how winning isn't everything, it is the only thing.

[Gregg]

Yes... just wondering where the majority would draw the line. The constant throws to 1B were over it to me.

Just curious; did you by any chance tell your baserunner to not take a lead?

How did your team react to the other teams tactic?

You could look at this in many ways. How important is it to win (playing "within" the rules)? Using all tools to win a championship. Or it is just an 11 year old baseball game, no big deal. Or maybe an opportunity to teach a life lesson. Is this how you want to win?

Maybe a combination of all of them?

[heyelander]

When you were playing candyland with your kids, did you get up and get something to drink or make phone calls or whatever in the middle of the game until it was their bedtime and then tell them they lost because they couldn't finish the game?

My dad use to let me take back moves in chess because you don't learn anything by losing on stupid moves. He would say "Are you sure you want to do that?" I would have to look and find where I had messed up and then make a better move. At some point we would flip the board and I would have to try to figure out how to win from the superior position. You don't learn anything from being allowed to make stupid mistakes.

[swampdragon]

BG-

I understand the intent of your postings but don't really believe that you support the actions of the coach

If you are coaching team B - (the losing team because team A successfully stalled enough to let time run out)
You go over and shake the hand of the other of the coach and heartily congradulate him on his showing everyone how the rules can be exploited - tell his players that was really commendable way to seal the game

and have a post game speech with your team and tell them - see how the other coach exploited the rules and won - they are winners - that is how the game should be played

or you coach team A and have a post game speech with your own team - good job boys you played well - and exploiting the rule loophole was really the key to winning - you should be proud of yourselves

really?

[baldgriff]

BG-

I understand the intent of your postings but don't really believe that you support the actions of the coach

If you are coaching team B - (the losing team because team A successfully stalled enough to let time run out)
You go over and shake the hand of the other of the coach and heartily congradulate him on his showing everyone how the rules can be exploited - tell his players that was really commendable way to seal the game

and have a post game speech with your team and tell them - see how the other coach exploited the rules and won - they are winners - that is how the game should be played

or you coach team A and have a post game speech with your own team - good job boys you played well - and exploiting the rule loophole was really the key to winning - you should be proud of yourselves

really?

I have been on both sides of this as a player and as a coach. I respect that many of you disagree with where I am coming from. Someone said that the time limit is there in order to make the games end so they dont go until midnight - but its not like football and running on every play or taking a knee to run the game time out.

I call BS here. If team A ran the clock out in an 11 year old football game - no one would be on here bitching or griping because Red Bowyou had his offense take a knee every play in the last half of the game and punted because the other team couldnt play offense (Waterboy reference there). In football it is an understood tactic to keep the clock running and take all of the time between plays so that the other team cant get the ball. Thus ensuring that you WIN THE GAME>>>> and no parent bitches or complains that team A took a knee --- its acceptable strategy.

So whats the difference here?? They are playing Baseball -everyone holy game.... Really guys if this topic was football there wouldnt be a coversation. However, because its baseball and the pitcher used up the clock in the huddle before pitching people are now upset.

Get over yourselves and realize that the problem here isnt the coach, its the difference in mentality between playing baseball and football........

Time Limits are part of the rules set - So why is it ok to take advantage of the loophole in football, but we cant do that in baseball (Sacrimonius BS guys - and if you think about it - you know its true.)

[In the Corn]

BG-

I understand the intent of your postings but don't really believe that you support the actions of the coach

If you are coaching team B - (the losing team because team A successfully stalled enough to let time run out)
You go over and shake the hand of the other of the coach and heartily congradulate him on his showing everyone how the rules can be exploited - tell his players that was really commendable way to seal the game

and have a post game speech with your team and tell them - see how the other coach exploited the rules and won - they are winners - that is how the game should be played

or you coach team A and have a post game speech with your own team - good job boys you played well - and exploiting the rule loophole was really the key to winning - you should be proud of yourselves

really?

As Judge Jude said, I think BG point about competition is valid, but this is a poor place to champion that position.

That coach should be made to be a laughingstock by the other coaches. I am sure this tactic will bit his team later in the year, as something like this get remembered. His kids will not appreciate this tactic when they are on the other side.

I coached my daughter's softball team when she was younger and the league had a really poor set-up. There were 8-9 teams, of those 6-7 were hand-picked and intended to be play competitive tournament softball. The other 2-3 were teams set up of girls that wanted to learn the game. My daughter was on one of the later teams. I was very up front with the parents that we would learn the game and my goal was to provide an experience that the girls would enjoy, as softball is a game that you can play for many, many years. I told them many of the teams were playing at a much higher level, and we wouldn't win many games. They appreciated the honesty.

One of the first games we played, the other team's third base coach was windmilling girls home as they were rounding second base trying to entice my girls to start the "snowball fight". We were on the third base dugout. I stepped out and very loudly said to the coach, "Really, this is what you're going to do? You can obviously see that your team is much more talented than my team. I would use this same tactic during a tournament, as well, but here in rec ball, we're learning the fundamentals and you are not helping your team or mine. I'm not asking you to play down to the competition, but your teaching anyone anything here. Good luck this weekend."

Coaches who have to live out the competitive dreams and shortcomings are the worst.

[swampdragon]

BG-

I understand the intent of your postings but don't really believe that you support the actions of the coach

If you are coaching team B - (the losing team because team A successfully stalled enough to let time run out)
You go over and shake the hand of the other of the coach and heartily congradulate him on his showing everyone how the rules can be exploited - tell his players that was really commendable way to seal the game

and have a post game speech with your team and tell them - see how the other coach exploited the rules and won - they are winners - that is how the game should be played

or you coach team A and have a post game speech with your own team - good job boys you played well - and exploiting the rule loophole was really the key to winning - you should be proud of yourselves

really?

BG - I was asking if you are fine being coach B or even coach B in this situation - I wasnt asking anything about football - and that these actions are commendable because the team won

Can you answer that?

[baldgriff]

BG - I was asking if you are fine being coach B or even coach B in this situation - I wasnt asking anything about football - and that these actions are commendable because the team won

Can you answer that?

I did answer that question. I have been on both sides of the situation. True you didnt ask anything about football - someone else referenced football in the discussion and I encorporated that comment into my response.

I think I have been pretty consistent in my response related to this. This situation seems to be "Select Ball" from the description. These are likely 5th and 6th graders. The teams are playing tournaments every couple weeks, so its pretty clear here that the play is above instuctional and is competitive. By this I mean that the focus here is on winning games. You dont play multiple tournaments as an instructional team. You also understand that the only way to keep playing is to win. The only way to win a tournament is to be the team that doesnt lose.

So with all of the context set - I would say again I have been on both sides of this. Would I employ this strategy? No, but Im not going to piss and moan because the other team did. My team still has to hit the ball or take walks and figure out ways to win. My job as the manager of team B is to figure out how to beat team A that is employing the strategy. My job as the team manager is not to point out to my kids that the other team is stalling, so lets feel sorry for ourselves and have some lame excuse as to why we lost. Make the pitcher throw strikes - take some walks - hustle for some extra bases. Make the other team start throwing the ball around. The still have to get 3 outs and they still have to pitch and they still have to field and throw the ball. The game isnt ending in 12 minutes, the game if we havent scored enough runs to take the lead while that 12 minutes has elapsed.


I again will say that if this was a conversation about football and a team running a total of 24 plays in the 4th 12 minute quarter by taking all 30 seconds between snaps not one person would be here saying the coach did anything but use the rules of the game to his advantage. However, because this is baseball there is supposed to be some higher meaning or lesson - because its baseball.

From my personal coaching experience - not the same age - but I think it will give you insight into me. I coached a Sr High boys slow-pitch softball team. In a tournament we were playing against what was supposed to be one or the better teams in the tournament. The Center Fielder shows up and had forgotten his glove and his cleats ( he was wearing boat dock shoes ). I brought the team together and I told them their player forgot his glove and he may come over here to ask if he can use one of theirs. I told them that the decision was their's. One of the CF's teammates had an extra glove - so no stress here. However, no one had extra shoes. In the first inning he goes out to the outfield barefoot. When I saw that I approached the umpire and told him that the rules state that all players are required to wear shoes as a safety measure. He was required to wear the cool shoes he showed up in - of course he could not run in them as they had zero traction. We proceed to hit ball after ball to the gaps making him run in those shoes. We won that game......

The other manager said outloud when the shoes were required "Damn Scott and his Rule Book". The rules are the rules and they are there to define the parameters of the game. Play within the rules and I dont have any complaint. Hell I honestly thought Red Bowyou's taking a knee for a whole half was genius - until the water boy showed up.