Verizon Customer?

[Roto Rooter]

Man it's times like this when I wish GITH still posted here.

[johnnya24]

i don't get why you keep harping on the "direct access to the servers" angle here, johnny. unless you mean after obtaining a court order. it seems pretty clear that the NSA *doesn't* have a direct conduit into the servers - they can only access it by court order.

Actually it seems very clear that they *do* have direct access to the servers BB. I'm not sure where you are getting your info from. And it's also clear that they do not need a court order to extract data (and they wouldn't care anyway). Actually no-one is denying this apart from the companies themselves ... the official justification so far is that this access is only being used to gather info on non-US citizens ... yet according to the companies it doesn't exist *at all*. They should really meet up and try and get their stories straight.

The whole point of PRISM was to get direct access (under the premise of "only" taking data on foreign nationals) ... and the Verizon order clearly shows that that is not what is "only" happening.

[bryanbutler]

all that slide says is that data is collected from the servers. it doesn't *necessarily* mean that the NSA has 24/7 direct access to them. you may be interpreting it that way, but it doesn't make it so. and i haven't seen the entire powerpoint from which this was taken - so it's hard to know context (also where this was presented and to whom).

aside from the companies, i thought there were statements from the administration about authorization being required. i may be confusing that with the statements about the verizon access though - those two have been bleeding into each other for me...

[johnnya24]

No one is denying it apart from the companies BB. The slides have already been verified as authentic ... hence the calls for Snowden's head on a platter.

PRISM is a program that gave the NSA direct access to the companies above under the premise they were *only* going to extract data on non-US citizens (I believe they crossed their hearts and hoped to die if they did anything else). That was their way in. Again, no-one apart from the companies is really denying this.

The Verizon order was I believe a renewal of an already active secret court order for them to release ALL data from all US customers. Presumably that didn't fall under the scope of PRISM because it was from a different data source ... mobile networks as opposed to the Internet.

The NSA are not looking to build cases ... just amass data on us. They don't need court orders, they don't need to follow legal procedure. They just want the data.

[senorsheep]

The ACLU sues...

Linky - http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-...956.html?hp=l4

The American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit Tuesday charging that the telephone call-tracking system disclosed via a leak last week violates the Constitution.

The suit, claiming First and Fourth Amendment violations, seeks to leverage the top-secret document leaked last week in order to overcome procedural arguments that defeated an earlier ACLU-backed challenge to government surveillance of telephone communications.

In February, the Supreme Court ruled, 5-4, that a group of writers, lawyers, and human rights activists represented by the ACLU lacked standing to challenge the program in court because they could not show their individual communications were being gathered.

However, the order released last week by Britain's Guardian newspaper indicates that the National Security Agency is obtaining daily call data on all Verizon customers, or at least all customers of a subsidiary called Verizon Business Network Services. The ACLU says its a current customer of VBNS, which should be sufficient to show that the civil liberties group was directly affected by the surveillance, which the suit refers to as "mass call tracking."

"The practice is akin to snatching every American’s address book—with annotations detailing whom we spoke to, when we talked, for how long, and from where. It gives the government a comprehensive record of our associations and public movements, revealing a wealth of detail about our familial, political, professional, religious, and intimate associations," the ACLU lawsuit says.

[bryanbutler]

Shockingly uninformed, BB.

touche, and i admitted that i'm not as up on this as maybe i should be, but you guys are acting like the NSA has the root password on the servers at google, and they're just taking whatever they want, whenever they want. 24/7 data pipe from mountain view to fort meade. i'm telling you that is almost certainly not the case.

and i'm not saying the slides aren't authentic, merely that they don't capture all the context. if you've ever given a powerpoint presentation you know that the slides are merely a guide. the words that went along with the slides are probably unknown, and probably carry an awful lot of the story. now, maybe that makes it worse or better, but you simply don't know. (and here, yes, i could be shockingly uninformed again! ).

do you have a pointer to the full set of slides? and to the government's "official" description of the program? (since you say they're not denying it, they must at least be attempting to explain it.)

[The Feral Slasher]

touche, and i admitted that i'm not as up on this as maybe i should be, but you guys are acting like the NSA has the root password on the servers at google, and they're just taking whatever they want, whenever they want. 24/7 data pipe from mountain view to fort meade. i'm telling you that is almost certainly not the case.

and i'm not saying the slides aren't authentic, merely that they don't capture all the context. if you've ever given a powerpoint presentation you know that the slides are merely a guide. the words that went along with the slides are probably unknown, and probably carry an awful lot of the story. now, maybe that makes it worse or better, but you simply don't know. (and here, yes, i could be shockingly uninformed again! ).

do you have a pointer to the full set of slides? and to the government's "official" description of the program? (since you say they're not denying it, they must at least be attempting to explain it.)

Here is the governments "official" description.

Sen. Wyden: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?

Director Clapper: No sir.

It does not.

Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertantly perhaps collect, but not wittingly.

Wait, this is from before the leak. I'm sure they will probably tell us the truth now, right ?

[The Feral Slasher]

Here is the governments "official" description.

Sen. Wyden: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?

Director Clapper: No sir.

It does not.

Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertantly perhaps collect, but not wittingly.

Wait, this is from before the leak. I'm sure they will probably tell us the truth now, right ?

In all seriousness, don't you think it says something about the state of our country that the man who is spying on Americans can lie to congress and the American people about it with impunity, while the one who exposes the truth is a traitor and will have his life ruined ?

[johnnya24]

touche, and i admitted that i'm not as up on this as maybe i should be, but you guys are acting like the NSA has the root password on the servers at google, and they're just taking whatever they want, whenever they want. 24/7 data pipe from mountain view to fort meade. i'm telling you that is almost certainly not the case.

and i'm not saying the slides aren't authentic, merely that they don't capture all the context. if you've ever given a powerpoint presentation you know that the slides are merely a guide. the words that went along with the slides are probably unknown, and probably carry an awful lot of the story. now, maybe that makes it worse or better, but you simply don't know. (and here, yes, i could be shockingly uninformed again! ).

do you have a pointer to the full set of slides? and to the government's "official" description of the program? (since you say they're not denying it, they must at least be attempting to explain it.)

Yeap that is what's happening. As unbelievable as it seems, that is exactly what has been happening ... hence the massive furore. Have you been pot-holing all week or something?

The Obama administration is flailing around. They are not trying to deny it, they are just presenting excuses and justifications. They cannot deny it because it's true, and if they try to deny it, and then there are more revelations, they will be totally screwed. From today:

The Obama administration says the Prism Internet surveillance program was needed to foil Najibullah Zazi's plot to bomb the NYC subway. But the chairs of both congressional intelligence committees say a different program, one that collects phone metadata, foiled the Zazi plot.

No denials ... just pathetic attempts at justifications, including fabricated justifications like this one, which their own intelligence committees even reject ... with of course the typical bullshit terrorist angle.

[johnnya24]

Where's mjl?

For the sake of his job, I'd recommend he just lurk on this one!

[chancellor]

They cannot deny it because it's true, and if they try to deny it, and then there are more revelations, they will be totally screwed.

Oh, they have been denying the real scope of what's being done. Obama administration officials to denial are like Tigger to bouncing. They just have to do it, regardless of the consequences.

[PaleoMan]

In 2011, the FISC Court ruled that the Administration's activities were indeed unconstitional, but here's the catch, the Admin argued that it lacks discretion to release the FISC opinion without the FISC's consent, but DOJ now argues that if the FISC were to agree with EFF, “the consequence would be that the Government could release the opinion or any portion of it in its discretion." In other words, those vaunted checks and balances that you had read about in U.S. history class have been vaporized and then some. We have the executive branch essentially creating a circular mockery of law for their own benefit. Hell, even the most depraved Banana Republic dictator would be smiling ear to ear over this outrageous scheme to conceal a ruling of this magnitude:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-says-secret-court-opinion-law-underlying-prism-program-needs-stay

[johnnya24]

Oh, they have been denying the real scope of what's being done. Obama administration officials to denial are like Tigger to bouncing. They just have to do it, regardless of the consequences.

They are not denying the existence of the program as Google, Facebook et al are doing (which was BB's point). They are just trotting out the justification for the programs initial approval (surveilling any non-US citizens), then expecting people to believe that is all it is being used for, which is untenable in the light of the Verizon order.

[PaleoMan]

NSA/Verizon Revelations..........Americans targeted as opposed to Foreigners. Another talking point blown to dust.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/05/nsas-verizon-spying-order-specifically-targeted-americans-not-foreigners/

[Frank]

and this Snowdon guy is a piece of work. Tough to buy the whistle-blower defense when he's running off to China to escape things. He committed treason, plain and simple.

Just starting to read this thread.....geez, pretty entertaining and borderline hysterical in few cases ; )

LMAO.....I would almost consider re-upping to be in on the snatch & grab of this POC Snowdon.