Verizon Customer?

[johnnya24]

Legally, as Ezra Klein pointed out this morning, he's not going to be able to be tried as one.

That doesn't change my personal opinion despite the fact I feel dirty for having the same opinion as the honorable congressman man from Ooompa Loompa.

Meanwhile, The Guardian seems to be doing some walking bag of the dog - http://littlegreenfootballs.com/arti...ious_reporting

as i said, i'm extremely skeptical that the NSA has direct access to the servers. this says i'm right.

The dropbox thing has been around since the beginning of these revelations MJ. The fact that a clueless moron like Charles Arthur is quoting it now means nothing (see below). So far the dropbox procedure has only been presented as a proposal that was made to these tech companies. There is no evidence to say that this was the final procedure that was approved / adopted.

The legal problem is that the existence of the dropbox program means that the companies themselves would have to hand over all this mass of private user data without specific court orders ... which of course is something that they are vehemently denying ... and would be an even more crippling blow to their credibility. It also doesn't fit with what we are hearing from the authorities, the Obama administration, and the intelligence committees within their justifications for the PRISM program. FISA green lit the PRISM program ... the PRISM program in its day-to-day operations does not require any further court orders to be made. It was designed that way. It takes what it wants.

What is the point of the dropbox system if the companies are just going to hand over all the data unquestioningly anyway ... they have no choice? The only people who can get harmed by dropbox are therefore the companies themselves.

Legally speaking, it would be much better for the companies if they were simply forced to allow the NSA direct access without an intermediary process ... it would be far far worse for the companies themselves if it was revealed that they who openly handed over all the data ... rather than the NSA just taking it. Verizon was given a blanket order to hand over ALL the data on EVERYONE. PRISM was designed to do the same thing for the Internet.

Either way, it amounts to the same thing ... the NSA just taking any data they want, filtering, analysing, grading and storing it. Dropbox just turns out to be so much worse of the companies themselves IMO ... it also seems a lot less convenient for NSA which is why I doubt this is the way it works. The companies would want to have deniability for the data being taken. Indeed, that is their line.

As an aside, I find it funny that Twitter are coming out and saying the refused to allow PRISM access to their systems. It's Twitter ... everything is public ... they don't need access to your servers get all the data they want / need. These revelations of innocence are just putting an even darker cloud over the other tech firms who are still in full-on denial mode. It looks more like "hey look at us ... see we didn't do anything wrong ... we're not like those other companies"

----

Let me caution you regarding that article you quoted. That was authored by Charles Arthur. He is the "technology" editor of the Guardian. He is a running joke among readers for his amateurish technology articles and uber-pro-Apple/corporate stance. He's a corporate schill and an embarrassment to proper journalism. He is clueless about even his own field, so I wouldn't be quoting his opinion on anything let alone politics.

He was just this week flown to Apple's iOS7 release by Apple. In general he is nothing more than a front for Apple. And I'm not saying this for convenience sake. I remember thinking last week when this clown would chime in with his idiotic observations on the technology angle ... and hey presto, it's an article about how these uber Companies are desperately trying to prove their innocence.

This is also one of the reasons why I find it so ironic that it's The Guardian who are leaking all this information and taking the moral high ground. Because they are just as responsible as the rest of our shackled media for the promotion of the lies that dominate our lives. In terms of day-to-day news reporting, The Graun are virtually the same as the rest. The idea that was floating around at the beginning, that it was the Guardian who convinced Edward Snowden to leak the data is preposterous to anyone who reads The Guardian on a daily basis.

The Guardian have this image as real investigative journalists. This was the paper who broke the news about "Operation Treadstone" in the Bourne movies. They aren't, but they love the image that they are. They were handed all this data on a platter (just like the Wikileaks data) because of the image they have. They have some good journalists, that's all. Editorially, they are a joke paper for the most part ... like the rest.

[nullnor]

this fugitive NSA guy is like a pair of keys right now..

if you don't hear from him or find them in the next 24-48 hours your never going to find them. which is kind of cool since gene hackman said to will smith in the movie enemy of the state 'if you live another day i'll be very impressed'. but i doubt he's jason bourne.

of course the alex jones cult will probably be telling us soon how he escaped to a secret human colony on the planet mars.

[Moonlight J]

well, not everything on Twitter is public. Direct messages are a very convenient way to hide things

[bryanbutler]

There is no evidence to say that this was the final procedure that was approved / adopted.

nor is there any evidence that the NSA has 24/7 access to servers. so it seems premature to me to assume it's so (as you have been).

[johnnya24]

nor is there any evidence that the NSA has 24/7 access to servers. so it seems premature to me to assume it's so (as you have been).

Except that everyone is accepting that is the case, and no-one is denying it, least tof all the Obama Administration and the Intel Committees. I don't know how else I can explain that BB.

Seems to me that you, MJ and JB you are seeing what you want to see, and what best fits your worldviews and preconceptions. I can't really argue with or against that. The debate becomes as pointless and circular as an RJ religion thread

[johnnya24]

well, not everything on Twitter is public. Direct messages are a very convenient way to hide things

You are aware that Twitter DMing is notoriously insecure?

[Moonlight J]

You are aware that Twitter DMing is notoriously insecure?

"It is?"

-- Anthony Weiner

[Moonlight J]

Except that everyone is accepting that is the case, and no-one is denying it, least tof all the Obama Administration and the Intel Committees. I don't know how else I can explain that BB.

Seems to me that you, MJ and JB you are seeing what you want to see, and what best fits your worldviews and preconceptions. I can't really argue with or against that. The debate becomes as pointless and circular as an RJ religion thread

I'm only seeing what is being reported, on both sides. Eventually, something will be identified as the truth here. You are just as guilty of seeing what you want as you accuse us of being. None of us are experts on this, that I am aware of.

This is an important issue and we should be asking for more transparency within how data mining requests are approved/denied.

[nullnor]

Robert Reich, awesome badass:

"Don't be distracted by the titillating story of Edward Snowden, who has apparently disappeared from his hotel in Hong Kong. Or the story of how and whether Hong Kong can extradite him to the United States. Or the story of Booz-Hamilton, the firm for which Snowden worked when he came across secret information, and its extensive work for the National Security Agency. Or the story about the government contracting out some of its intelligence-gathering work to private for-profit firms like Booz-Hamilton. These are diversions, whipped up by a media that panders to the public's fascination with fugitives on the lamb and corporations on the take.

The real story here -- the only signficant one -- is that the U.S. government has been collecting huge amount of private data on U.S. citizens, including all their contacts, in complete secret, running roughshod over privacy and civil liberties. And now we find that it's extended its dragnet to Google and other digital repositories. The so-called "war on terrorism" is the government's alleged justification, but that's a war without end -- and even if the President went to great lengths last week to announce it was over, these continuing encroachments on personal liberties suggests it will not end unless or until we demand that it ends, in all its manifestations, including these."

but i don't like that response by Robert. it still does sound far sighted tho.

if ppl like me can lose faith in Robert Reich, you can see how ppl lose faith in other things they believe. thats how you end up with Alex Jones. it takes something major to fail. something that crushes your belief for you to join something like alex jones... it doesn't happen overnight. it starts with the grassy knoll. and now here we are.

it's like suddenly not believing in the big bang anymore. that the positions of great walls of galaxies would take a trillion years to form instead of billions.

nevertheless, the psychiatry is extraordinary. it transcends political realms.

[johnnya24]

I'm only seeing what is being reported, on both sides. Eventually, something will be identified as the truth here. You are just as guilty of seeing what you want as you accuse us of being. None of us are experts on this, that I am aware of.

This is an important issue and we should be asking for more transparency within how data mining requests are approved/denied.

... and the fact that PRISM means that data mining is taking place without any requests or denials?

I will gladly switch my opinions 180 degrees if the evidence is provided to support that switch. I do not have any vested interest in US politics or the Democratic Party or Obama's administration. I just interpret what I see.

When the initial PRISM claims were released, I was just as gobsmacked as BB. But I've long since passed through the denial phase on matters such as these.

[The Feral Slasher]

I'm only seeing what is being reported, on both sides. Eventually, something will be identified as the truth here. You are just as guilty of seeing what you want as you accuse us of being. None of us are experts on this, that I am aware of.

This is an important issue and we should be asking for more transparency within how data mining requests are approved/denied.

Then why in the hell are you calling Snowden a traitor ? His actions are the only hope that there will ever be a discussion about this. Can't you see that the government is doing everything in its power to keep their actions secret and to make is so that anyone who reports/blows the whistle on their action will have their life ruined. You and B-Fly talk like you support transparency and think that Obama does too. He doesn't. He has done everything possible to limit discussion and knowledge. Wake Up !!

[nullnor]

Then why in the hell are you calling Snowden a traitor ? His actions are the only hope that there will ever be a discussion about this. Can't you see that the government is doing everything in its power to keep their actions secret and to make is so that anyone who reports/blows the whistle on their action will have their life ruined. You and B-Fly talk like you support transparency and think that Obama does too. He doesn't. He has done everything possible to limit discussion and knowledge. Wake Up !!

i c it more like 70% under bush supported it and 70% supporting obama did. so depending who your so-called guy is 70% of the population supports you.

OR.. 70% of the ppl welcome a discussion about it. .. honestly i don't see how anything has changed. eventually everyone is involved in the discussion. which is good.

[The Feral Slasher]

i c it more like 70% under bush supported it and 70% supporting obama did. so depending who your so-called guy is 70% of the population supports you.

OR.. 70% of the ppl welcome a discussion about it. .. honestly i don't see how anything has changed. eventually everyone is involved in the discussion. which is good.

Without Snowden we aren't having this discussion. Your alternatives are to have someone like him reveal these secrets so we can have a discussion or to count on the government to tell the truth and provide info on their own. I don't see how you can claim to want to have a discussion and transparency and think that it was going to happen without this leak. It's a fantasy.

[nullnor]

what is freedom and liberty tho. i've been thinking about it all night.

in a way i worry that freedom and liberty is a convenience. we give up security, to a lesser degree it's convenient to be able to say what we want with the 1st amendment. sure we have regulations but if we want to put up a tv antennae in scotland we don't have top check first with the local government.

in lesser cases of privacy it involves political correctness and the 1st amendment. say what you say w/o being watched. in bigger cases it involves not being persecuted, tortured and killed.

you know when ppl complain about gas prices they cause us to go conquer some foreign country and put a monarch in control. but eventually the ppl of that country might want to nuke us. thats called trading security for freedom liberty and convenience.

when ppl want to use fossil fuels that pollute and create e5 tornado's and sandy-like hurricanes, thats called trading safety for convenience.. or what a dickhead like al gore would call and inconvenience (al gore fucked us with biofarming) if you believe in global warming.

in conclusion it's ok to trade security for freedom, as long as your not getting killed or tortured.

[nullnor]

Without Snowden we aren't having this discussion. Your alternatives are to have someone like him reveal these secrets so we can have a discussion or to count on the government to tell the truth and provide info on their own. I don't see how you can claim to want to have a discussion and transparency and think that it was going to happen without this leak. It's a fantasy.

you are right. thats very true. knowledge should be shared.

i guess the trick is not to have the government become smarter than everyone else. .. and i think we can only hope that it keeps pace with us. .. im mean what is the government gonna do when 3d printers only cost $200. ..remaining manufacturing companies collapse like Dell, and ppl can download how to make guns and bombs off the internet with them?