GOP Convention Rules!

[Hornsby]

Question 1 - He failed to fulfill his campaign promise to Janesville, which is exactly what Ryan pointed out. As I've said from 2008, he's a Chicago-bred, cold-ass, politician. Now, as I noted earlier, I'm certainly not naif enough to realize that politicians from both parties are just as cold and fail on fulfilling promises, but usually they do so with issues that they know they don't have control over.
Question 2 - The Obama administration certainly did have the authority to retool the Janesville plant; they drove many things as part of the restructuring, including forcing Wagoner to resign (which I agreed 100% with), retooling some additional lines for Volt production and so on. They chose not to retool Janesville, which, again, as I noted, was probably a good business decision.
Question 3 - Obama providing leadership guidance over key issues during the transition certainly happened...I hope. I mean, if we're going to take a step as radical as taking over a major corporation and spend billions in taxpayer dollars to do so, I sure hope he had input into some of the high end decision making.

Jesus Chance, let it go, you're better than this. EVERY media organization and political fact checking organization that bothered to check the facts came up with the same conclusion, Ryan intentionally lied about the plant closing under the Obama administration. Even Fox for Gods sake...and that was just one of his BS lines during the speech.

[GTAXI]

Clint Eastwood was the surprise guest? and that is what we got? Holy crap! What the f#@k were the Elephants thinking putting him up there. That was bizzare!

[Bob Kohm]

Clint Eastwood was the surprise guess? and that is what we got? Holy crap! What the f#@k were the Elephants thinking putting him up there. That was bizzare!

The Good, the Bad, The Ugly... the senile? That was fuc*ing strange. He just interviewed a chair and repeatedly it told him to go fuc* himself. Just wow.

[Judge Jude]

re the Ryan speech analysis and beyond, I have sort of feared the emotions of this campaign erupting - and it's not even Labor Day:

- I agree that there is no fair conclusion, even in an awkwardly-worded Obama speech that day (no teleprompter), other than that "you didn't build" is roads and bridges.

- The plant closing thing doesn't quite strike me as an Obama slam dunk, either - it's a place he went and talked about how he'd work to save places "like" that - and then let it close, possibly. But Ryan's language sure feels misleading to me.

- I'm not caught up yet on Medicare, but again that's a complicated issue for Obama. He saves us money on Obamacare by cutting growth there, yet he wants to knock someone else for also trying to rein in costs? I'm open to being educated on that point in particular.

- Let's see what the Democratic Convention hauls out, as well. I hope they put the factcheckers on the unemployment line, but not sure that will happen.

I know the stakes are high for many in the country, and in here.

I also hope we can try to keep the pressure cooker pot from hitting the ceiling. We're all gonna be ok come November, one way or another.

[Bob Kohm]

Same question I put to Ray I put to you, JJ... is this campaign by Mr. Romney and Mr. Ryan just the usual political puffery, or is it a campaign hung on a framework of blatant lies? I know that you're particularly loathe to ever commit on a political question, but sometimes isn't there reason to do it? For me, when a campaign lies, gets called on the lies by even their own side... and then not only tells them again but intensifies and enlarges them to be central themes, chanted by tens of thousands in unison like something out of Orwell... when do you commit, Jude?

[chancellor]

Jesus Chance, let it go, you're better than this. EVERY media organization and political fact checking organization that bothered to check the facts came up with the same conclusion, Ryan intentionally lied about the plant closing under the Obama administration. Even Fox for Gods sake...and that was just one of his BS lines during the speech.

Perhaps the ones you read from the LWBC, but perhaps you can explain CNN's "True, but incomplete"? And Fox's fact check is here: http://politics.foxnews.mobi/quickPa...4592&pageNum=1

Perhaps you can explain to me how, when they say "Nothing Ryan said was factually untrue" equals "Ryan intentionally lied about the plant closing under the Obama administration".

Heck, even Ezra Klein had to go back and clean up his own mess concerning his "fact checking".

Frankly, I could care less if every media organization did come up with the same conclusion - it's readily apparent from reading what Ryan actually said that he was factually accurate relative to the Janesville plant, which is what Jason raised as a specific point earlier. If you want to believe that Obama was speaking to the auto industry in general when he came to Janesville three times and committed to retooling, feel free. To me, it's obvious he was making campaign promises to garner votes. And once Obama had the capability to make good on that promise, his administration failed to do so. And the plant is still closed.

[Bob Kohm]

Perhaps the ones you read from the LWBC, but perhaps you can explain CNN's "True, but incomplete"? And Fox's fact check is here: http://politics.foxnews.mobi/quickPa...4592&pageNum=1

Perhaps you can explain to me how, when they say "Nothing Ryan said was factually untrue" equals "Ryan intentionally lied about the plant closing under the Obama administration".blub blub HELP I have a leg cramp blub

Heck, even Ezra Klein had to go back and clean up his own mess concerning his "fact checking".

Frankly, I could care less if every media organization did come up with the same conclusion - it's readily apparent from reading what Ryan actually said that he was factually accurate relative to the Janesville plant, which is what Jason blub blub blub CAN'T TREAD WATER blub blubraised as a specific point earlier. If you want to believe that Obama was speaking to the auto industry in general when he came to Janesville three times and committed to retooling, feel free. To me, it's obvious he was making campaign promises to garner votes. And once Obama had the capability to make good on that promise, his administratiFOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GET ME A LIFEGUARD blub blub blub blubon failed to do so. And the plant is still closed.

Fixed

[SeaDogStat]

In the words of the great Johnny Upton...



"Jesus Christ, that's ****ing embarrassing!"

[Hornsby]

Perhaps the ones you read from the LWBC, but perhaps you can explain CNN's "True, but incomplete"? And Fox's fact check is here: http://politics.foxnews.mobi/quickPa...4592&pageNum=1

Perhaps you can explain to me how, when they say "Nothing Ryan said was factually untrue" equals "Ryan intentionally lied about the plant closing under the Obama administration".

Heck, even Ezra Klein had to go back and clean up his own mess concerning his "fact checking".

Frankly, I could care less if every media organization did come up with the same conclusion - it's readily apparent from reading what Ryan actually said that he was factually accurate relative to the Janesville plant, which is what Jason raised as a specific point earlier. If you want to believe that Obama was speaking to the auto industry in general when he came to Janesville three times and committed to retooling, feel free. To me, it's obvious he was making campaign promises to garner votes. And once Obama had the capability to make good on that promise, his administration failed to do so. And the plant is still closed.

LOL...you have kids Chance? It's called a "lie of omission". The kid didn't lie to you about what he did, but he sure as hell didn't tell you the whole story either. Nothing Ryan said was factually untrue is the best defense that can be mounted? Please...the fate of the plant was determined the Bush administration, no amount of parsing about when the final door was locked is going to change that simple fact.

[Judge Jude]

"For me, when a campaign lies, gets called on the lies by even their own side...."

Bob, I am loathe to call things "lies" if I can't prove it, and especially if the truth is more complicated - emotions aside.

And if it seems to me that the upcoming Democratic Convention speeches contain nothing as misleading as the stuff that occurred this week, I will be happy to remark on that.

The corrollary, of course, for anyone offended this week would be to call out Democratic Party misleading comments as well.

That's what factcheck.org does.
They're not perfect, but they're pretty fair.

And if they praise the next convention to the skies for their unprecendented accuracy, I likely will be the first to post that here. My ex-colleague who now is a key figure there is a picture of professionalism.

[Hornsby]

"For me, when a campaign lies, gets called on the lies by even their own side...."

Bob, I am loathe to call things "lies" if I can't prove it, and especially if the truth is more complicated - emotions aside.

And if it seems to me that the upcoming Democratic Convention speeches contain nothing as misleading as the stuff that occurred this week, I will be happy to remark on that.

The corrollary, of course, for anyone offended this week would be to call out Democratic Party misleading comments as well.

That's what factcheck.org does.
They're not perfect, but they're pretty fair.

And if they praise the next convention to the skies for their unprecendented accuracy, I likely will be the first to post that here. My ex-colleague who now is a key figure there is a picture of professionalism.

From your preferred site...

TAMPA, Fla. — Paul Ryan’s acceptance speech at the Republican convention contained several false claims and misleading statements. Delegates cheered as the vice presidential nominee:

Accused President Obama’s health care law of funneling money away from Medicare “at the expense of the elderly.” In fact, Medicare’s chief actuary says the law “substantially improves” the system’s finances, and Ryan himself has embraced the same savings.

Accused Obama of doing “exactly nothing” about recommendations of a bipartisan deficit commission — which Ryan himself helped scuttle.

Claimed the American people were “cut out” of stimulus spending. Actually, more than a quarter of all stimulus dollars went for tax relief for workers.

Faulted Obama for failing to deliver a 2008 campaign promise to keep a Wisconsin plant open. It closed less than a month before Obama took office.

Blamed Obama for the loss of a AAA credit rating for the U.S. Actually, Standard & Poor’s blamed the downgrade on the uncompromising stands of both Republicans and Democrats.

And when he wasn’t attacking Obama, Ryan was puffing up the record of his running mate, Mitt Romney, on taxes and unemployment.

[cardboardbox]

I have a Hispanic wife and it feels personal.

I have a Hispanic wife too but neither us have a problem with rooters comments.

[Judge Jude]

Thanks, Horns, but I already posted that - I think in this same thread.

whatever criticism one may have of the site, I don't think anyone will be claiming I cherry-pick from there.
and as an independent who has found the site to be very fair, why would I?

I'll try to post key elements from them at the next convention tiime as well, my real life permitting. That analysis may please the left or the right more, ultimately - don't know and don't care.

I respect the passion of those backers of either party, but I won't claim to understand it. They both seem off-key.
And I also accept any personal criticism of "well, at least people are picking a side they perceive as more helpful or less evil, and you sit on the sidelines."

yam what I yam

[cardboardbox]

Perhaps the ones you read from the LWBC, but perhaps you can explain CNN's "True, but incomplete"? And Fox's fact check is here: http://politics.foxnews.mobi/quickPa...4592&pageNum=1

Perhaps you can explain to me how, when they say "Nothing Ryan said was factually untrue" equals "Ryan intentionally lied about the plant closing under the Obama administration".

Heck, even Ezra Klein had to go back and clean up his own mess concerning his "fact checking".

Frankly, I could care less if every media organization did come up with the same conclusion - it's readily apparent from reading what Ryan actually said that he was factually accurate relative to the Janesville plant, which is what Jason raised as a specific point earlier. If you want to believe that Obama was speaking to the auto industry in general when he came to Janesville three times and committed to retooling, feel free. To me, it's obvious he was making campaign promises to garner votes. And once Obama had the capability to make good on that promise, his administration failed to do so. And the plant is still closed.

Im on a beach with no wifi and a piss poor cell signal so it's pretty hard to get online but I just wanted to say you've done a great job trying to push back against the insanity. But it's probably time to step away before you go insane also.

Nothing Ryan said about the auto plant closing was incorrect. We can argue all day about what he meant or implied but none of that changes his factual statement.

[cardboardbox]

She agrees that "brainwashing and programs that give free stuff for doing nothing" are the reasons minorities don't tend to vote Republican?

she would like to know what free stuff she can get from either side before choosing. She's also not interested in politics. Her dad is a mex American repub, I'll have to ask him.