2020 Election thread.

[nots]

Really? Facts say differently...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-exit-polls-how-donald-trump-won-the-us-presidency/

She was surely a flawed candidate, but the fact that she was also a woman certainly played into the narrative.

What you are citing isn't really a 'fact'. The numbers are factual, but you then add your interpretation of them.
Because a higher % men voted for Trump doesn't necessarily make them misogynistic anymore than a higher % of women voting for Clinton makes them misogynistic. It's a very superficial analysis.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Really? Facts say differently...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-exit-polls-how-donald-trump-won-the-us-presidency/

She was surely a flawed candidate, but the fact that she was also a woman certainly played into the narrative.

I'd say you're over thinking it.

Many factors played into it.

When picking between two evils you go with the one you know.

While I'm sure her being a woman played into some votes, I don't think it lost her the election.

Do you have to numbers from the key states she lost?

Her numbers can't really be compared to Obama--Because HE didn't have the baggage she did.

He was Black and still won.

Are you saying this country has a bigger problem with Misogyny than it does with Racism?

[nots]

I'd say you're over thinking it.

Many factors played into it.

When picking between two evils you go with the one you know.

While I'm sure her being a woman played into some votes, I don't think it lost her the election.

Do you have to numbers from the key states she lost?

Her numbers can't really be compared to Obama--Because HE didn't have the baggage she did.

He was Black and still won.

Are you saying this country has a bigger problem with Misogyny than it does with Racism?

Many, many years ago Howard Stern that America woukd have a black President before a woman for whatever that's worth.

[senorsheep]

Curtain speeches happen all the time prior to and after the show. They address many issues from fundraising to political endorsements to acknowledgments and on and on. Hell I'm sure there are people who've paid for a ticket that don't give a shit if it's so n so's birthday or that Bobby donated so much to the theatre and they wanted to thank him or that you wan't to collect money for the victims of the Oklahoma City Bombing (something I did at a theatre I ran in Texas). Sometimes they are planned sometimes impromptu, but the Theatre, by it's very nature is interactive. It's become more about provoking thought than pure entertainment--Hamilton is they very embodiment of that--It's there to provoke you, to make you think and the theatre, being as diverse as it is both in it's community and politics and that community being very demonstrative regarding their feelings.

This wasn't just the cast, something like this had to be approved with the Stage Manager, Director and Producer. This wasn't just one cast expressing it's concerns, it was an Industry doing so.

Again, I maintain there is no right or wrong place for first amendment rights--Censor one, censor all. That's been one of the issues that's led us here--we're too polite at times. Call people out, make them face their shit.

Pence is anti LGBT, he needs to hear about how inappropriate that is, loud and often.

In my opinion, it wasn't a lecture, just a very, very polite reminder that he's representing ALL Americans and we hope he serves in that context.

As far as semantics, when we Like what someone says we are surprised, when we dont we're ambushed.' How about this--Expect your shit to follow you good and bad, then you won't get flummoxed if and when it pops up.

One thing you and I agree on is gay rights. So let me tell you something as a fellow gay rights supporter - we lose when this happens.

The key to safeguarding gay rights in the future is convincing convince-able conservative people that our position on it is logically correct. We need as many of them as possible on our side if we don't want gay rights to be teetering in the balance of every election.

That theater troupe stunt does not bring convince-able conservative people into the fold. It drives them away. Their VP was hit with a sucker punch that night. It doesn't matter that you don't see it that way. They do (and I agree with them in this case). What do you think they're taking away from this episode? Nothing from that message was taken to heart, I assure you. For most of them, the take-away was "Fuck those guys." Very understandably.

I know you and the activists and the butt-hurts are pumping your fists in celebration. Enjoy. But when you're done celebrating, consider whether that truly advanced the cause of gay rights. Consider the net impact of what went down. Whatever you think was effectively achieved by that - I will argue absolutely nothing - the downside is that many people who could have been convinced to join us just waved us off and walked away in disgust. The hardcore in-your-face tactics you advocate do nothing but push away people we need.

For all the alleged good intentions, gay rights lost that night.

[Hornsby]

What you are citing isn't really a 'fact'. The numbers are factual, but you then add your interpretation of them.
Because a higher % men voted for Trump doesn't necessarily make them misogynistic anymore than a higher % of women voting for Clinton makes them misogynistic. It's a very superficial analysis.

The numbers are factual, but not facts...got it. You may decide that it's superficial, because it fits your view...but if it walks like a duck, etc. Eventually you can't ignore the numbers, they speak for themselves despite attempted interpretation.

The United States is a very provincial nation...even Muslim countries have been led by women. India, Germany, England, Pakistan, and many others...the US has had ONE candidate in the final ticket, one. And she and her partner got crushed 49 states to one.

And yes Brian, I do think that this country was far more ready to elect a Black Man than a woman of any color.

[GwynnInTheHall]

One thing you and I agree on is gay rights. So let me tell you something as a fellow gay rights supporter - we lose when this happens.

The key to safeguarding gay rights in the future is convincing convince-able conservative people that our position on it is logically correct. We need as many of them as possible on our side if we don't want gay rights to be teetering in the balance of every election.

That theater troupe stunt does not bring convince-able conservative people into the fold. It drives them away. Their VP was hit with a sucker punch that night. It doesn't matter that you don't see it that way. They do (and I agree with them in this case). What do you think they're taking away from this episode? Nothing from that message was taken to heart, I assure you. For most of them, the take-away was "Fuck those guys." Very understandably.

I know you and the activists and the butt-hurts are pumping your fists in celebration. Enjoy. But when you're done celebrating, consider whether that truly advanced the cause of gay rights. Consider the net impact of what went down. Whatever you think was effectively achieved by that - I will argue absolutely nothing - the downside is that many people who could have been convinced to join us just waved us off and walked away in disgust. The hardcore in-your-face tactics you advocate do nothing but push away people we need.

For all the alleged good intentions, gay rights lost that night.

I'm really not arguing policy, I'm arguing proper etiquette in live theatre.

I see your point and I feel Trump's election is already a giant Fuck those guys.

I'd like to believe people can have their mind changed on gay rights, but I really don;t see that happening significantly--Unfortunately.

Again, I'm not celebrating this--Just offering my experience from being in and running live theatre venues.

[GwynnInTheHall]

The numbers are factual, but not facts...got it. You may decide that it's superficial, because it fits your view...but if it walks like a duck, etc. Eventually you can't ignore the numbers, they speak for themselves despite attempted interpretation.

The United States is a very provincial nation...even Muslim countries have been led by women. India, Germany, England, Pakistan, and many others...the US has had ONE candidate in the final ticket, one. And she and her partner got crushed 49 states to one.

And yes Brian, I do think that this country was far more ready to elect a Black Man than a woman of any color.

I have to disagree--Had Warren run, she'd have beaten Trump.

[Hornsby]

I have to disagree--Had Warren run, she'd have beaten Trump.

If's and Buts...you have to get there first, and I don't see a path where she could have gotten there.

Hillary should have won...her campaign literally fumbled the Presidency away. There were countless points where you could have pointed to something and say, yeah, that was the tipping point. Put them all together, add a dash of foreign hackers, add some WikiLeakes, and a splash of FBI interference, and you got a lost presidency. Winner of the popular vote, but really, that's irrelevant.

Frankly, anyone SHOULD have beaten Trump...but they didn't. This election is going to be fodder for historians for a century to come.

[GwynnInTheHall]

If's and Buts...you have to get there first, and I don't see a path where she could have gotten there.

Hillary should have won...her campaign literally fumbled the Presidency away. There were countless points where you could have pointed to something and say, yeah, that was the tipping point. Put them all together, add a dash of foreign hackers, add some WikiLeakes, and a splash of FBI interference, and you got a lost presidency. Winner of the popular vote, but really, that's irrelevant.

Frankly, anyone SHOULD have beaten Trump...but they didn't. This election is going to be fodder for historians for a century to come.

Again I feel you fault everything but the obvious.

It was the system that forced Hillary upon us even though she was reviled, more so than people will admit. If the DNC had wanted Warren, she'd had gotten the nomination-same with Sanders.

I mentioned that people were underestimating how universally she was disliked.

She had the superior credentials, she had an amazing campaign which ate people up and spit them out.

In the end people voted their feelings and their passion and she came out on the short end of both those factors.

I doubt you'll agree, but I believe this was all about the system (DNC) forcing their choice on us and the people saying Fuck That.

[Pogues]

Really? Facts say differently...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-exit-polls-how-donald-trump-won-the-us-presidency/

She was surely a flawed candidate, but the fact that she was also a woman certainly played into the narrative.

To say Hillary lost the election because she was an election is completely denying all the reasons she lost/he won. I think we can agree that Trump was a horrible candidate, and the fact that Hillary couldn't defeat him goes beyond just her being a woman. Far beyond.

[Pogues]

Many, many years ago Howard Stern that America woukd have a black President before a woman for whatever that's worth.

And the first Black President had to beat a strong female candidate in the primaries to win the nomination.

[senorsheep]

The game's changed. Obama was once in a generation. Trump's awoken the "Plight of the White Man." We just saw how the black votes tailed off when they didn't have a stake in the game. There's still too much misogyny to have a woman win. Need I go on?

"Plight of the White Man"...LOL. No, you don't need to go on. If you really think that, then we have zero chance of agreeing what this election was about.

I'll tell you one thing I think it was about - flyover country people tired of being portrayed as racist, sexist, moronic monsters by race-and-gender obsessed liberals who can't conceive that everyone doesn't see the world through their identity politics prism.

[DMT]

"Plight of the White Man"...LOL. No, you don't need to go on. If you really think that, then we have zero chance of agreeing what this election was about.

I'll tell you one thing I think it was about - flyover country people tired of being portrayed as racist, sexist, moronic monsters by race-and-gender obsessed liberals who can't conceive that everyone doesn't see the world through their identity politics prism.

Totally agree. My FB feed has become insufferable because of whiny liberals bemoaning the evil bigots/racists/misogynists/anti-semites. I posted this hoping they'd read it but I'm sure none of them did.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

And this breaking down the election results.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/

[Hornsby]

Again I feel you fault everything but the obvious.

It was the system that forced Hillary upon us even though she was reviled, more so than people will admit. If the DNC had wanted Warren, she'd had gotten the nomination-same with Sanders.

I mentioned that people were underestimating how universally she was disliked.

She had the superior credentials, she had an amazing campaign which ate people up and spit them out.

In the end people voted their feelings and their passion and she came out on the short end of both those factors.

I doubt you'll agree, but I believe this was all about the system (DNC) forcing their choice on us and the people saying Fuck That.

Of course I don't agree...where would the fun be in that?

I know that you hate the system, and want to see it all burned down, but the nature of the beast is that it was Clintons to say no to. That would have been the only way for another candidate to ne the nominee, and she obviously wanted it.

I don't think that the people said "fuck that", I think that the campaign made a large number of mistakes, and had more than one opponent in the end.

The millennials are the shit-show of this election...and no, I don't think that they would have turned out for Bernie either, but we'll never know. To have an asshole like Kanye stand up on stage and rant about the election, ALL THE TIME ADMITTING THAT HE NEVER VOTED, is the millennial problem in a microcosm. Had they turned out even 30%, she would likely have won in a landslide...again, if's and but's.

BTW, stay off of my lawn!

[Hornsby]

To say Hillary lost the election because she was an election is completely denying all the reasons she lost/he won. I think we can agree that Trump was a horrible candidate, and the fact that Hillary couldn't defeat him goes beyond just her being a woman. Far beyond.

No, I listed many of the reasons that she lost. But to pretend that misogyny isn't one of them is burying your head in the sand.

I've said it all along...I think she was an extremely flawed candidate, but she would have been a great President.