Originally posted by Controller Jacobs
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is todd helton a hall of famer?
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"Igor, would you give me a hand with the bags?"
"Certainly. You take the blonde and I'll take the one in the turban!"
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Originally posted by Don Quixote View PostI don't think there's as much "coastal" bias as there used to be. As Controller Jacobs pointed out, it didn't seem to work against Barry Larkin or Kirby Puckett, both, like Helton, one-team players who were big with their local communities. I don't have any data, but I don't recall too many HOF-marginal Yankee-Red Sox-Dodger types getting in lately over better players who played here in the "flyovers".
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
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Originally posted by Long John View PostI agree. I think if you're just looking at his stats, he's not going to stack up to a ton of past HOF players. But I'll take him over Bill Mazeroski any day of the week and twice on Sundays. The guy's a gamer, plays through pain and fought through a cranky back to stay in the game these past 5-6 years. His useful longevity should count for something. And he's the face of that franchise, absolutely. I'm pulling for him to get in, but I understand the argument against (in regards to position, not the Coors effect).
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
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I don't know... something like this? Without worrying too much about the order I think this is reasonable and it's likely he's a 3rd tier guy. If so, then those are all guys who probably belong in the Hall. If you think he's tier 4 then probably not. If you put Keith Hernandez in Coors is he a hall of famer?
Gehrig
Foxx
----
Bagwell
Mize
Mccovey
Pujols
McGwire
Greenberg
Frank Thomas
----
Eddie Murray
Sisler
Helton
McGriff
Palmeiro
Cepeda
Thome
(Roger Connor, Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers)
----
Giambi
Dick Allen
Killebrew
Mattingly
Keith Hernandez
Bill Terry
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Eddie Murray
Sisler
Helton
McGriff
Palmeiro
Cepeda
Thome
If that is his tier, then I would say he needs extra values, like Murray's defense. Sisler is a different era, but the next group are all outside looking in. Cepeda was an iffy choice. Any of these guys would be.
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
Comment
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Eddie Murray was a .287 hitter with more than 3200 hits. Great hitter who's extended career longevity helped get him in.
Helton only has 2500 hits, but his career OBP is .414! He's finishing his career with better OBPs than Rickey Henderson, Joe DiMaggio, Hank Greenberg and Jackie Robinson.
And with a .954 OPS, he'll finish ahead of Bagwell, Ty Cobb, Shoeless Joe and Hack Wilson.
So if he was in the AL and got to DH for half his career like Edgar Martinez, would we be having this discussion?
He's in."Igor, would you give me a hand with the bags?"
"Certainly. You take the blonde and I'll take the one in the turban!"
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Originally posted by onejayhawk View PostIf that is his tier, then I would say he needs extra values, like Murray's defense.
J
like total zone + total fielding above average? helton 107, murray 61
what makes you think that murray was a better defender than helton?~ all in all is all we are ~
kc
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No way. Amazing career but not HOF. His highest MVP finish was 5th and he was only in the Top 10 three times. MVP voters are far from perfect but it's somewhat telling. If we're looking at Colorado guys, Larry Walker is far more deserving -- fantastic outfielder, more diverse game (he could run), and has an MVP -- and he likely (and sadly) won't sniff the HOF.
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Originally posted by Cobain's Ghost View Postlike 1b fielding percentage? helton .996 (79 in 20,673 chances), murray .993 (167 in 23,287)
like total zone + total fielding above average? helton 107, murray 61
what makes you think that murray was a better defender than helton?
JAd Astra per Aspera
Oh. In that case, never mind. - Wonderboy
GITH fails logic 101. - bryanbutler
Bah...OJH caught me. - Pogues
I don't know if you guys are being willfully ignorant, but... - Judge Jude
Comment
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Originally posted by joncarlos View PostI don't know... something like this? Without worrying too much about the order I think this is reasonable and it's likely he's a 3rd tier guy. If so, then those are all guys who probably belong in the Hall. If you think he's tier 4 then probably not. If you put Keith Hernandez in Coors is he a hall of famer?
Gehrig
Foxx
----
Bagwell
Mize
Mccovey
Pujols
McGwire
Greenberg
Frank Thomas
----
Eddie Murray
Sisler
Helton
McGriff
Palmeiro
Cepeda
Thome
(Roger Connor, Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers)
----
Giambi
Dick Allen
Killebrew
Mattingly
Keith Hernandez
Bill TerryI'm just here for the baseball.
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also it is more difficult to clear a 150 OPS+ when you play in a strong hitting environment vs a weak one, iirc
plus the AL in Allen's MVP year was awful, iirc - ironically, the last remnants of a racist league where virtually all of the best African-Americans were in the NL for 20+ years. Yankees and Red Sox had NO such players of any quality at all until 8 to 12 years after Jackie.
there's a great big world beyond in-league OPSfinished 10th in this 37th yr in 11-team-only NL 5x5
own picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 in April 2022 1st-rd farmhand draft
won in 2017 15 07 05 04 02 93 90 84
SP SGray 16, TWalker 10, AWood 10, Price 3, KH Kim 2, Corbin 10
RP Bednar 10, Bender 10, Graterol 2
C Stallings 2, Casali 1
1B Votto 10, 3B ERios 2, 1B Zimmerman 2, 2S Chisholm 5, 2B Hoerner 5, 2B Solano 2, 2B LGarcia 10, SS Gregorius 17
OF Cain 14, Bader 1, Daza 1
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OK, Allen was probably a lot better than I gave him credit for, and Will Clark probably belongs in the 4th tier with Donnie Baseball. Apparently I can't rank players with zero research any more
The article that ElD posted was a pretty good breakdown. I wouldn't mind if Helton got in, just because it would mean that sportswriters were getting more realistic about Coors, but I won't be banging down the door if they don't let him in either. (Unlike Jeff Bagwell... I mean, seriously.)
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