Progress

[Wonderboy]

Again, this thread has become (predictably) about the Christian faith. I say to Christians --- as you reject Thor, Zeus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and any number of other gods, so surely can you see how I reject your god.

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
-Stephen Roberts

[SeaDogStat]

So God is just this benevolent, tolerant being that's pretty much cool with however you want to live your life? He's like a Big Lebowski up there somewhere?

That's pretty much how I envision my concept of God...except for the benevolent part...God being neither benevolent nor malevolent. Everything is about free will and choices. There are always consequences to your actions/choices, but you are free to make them.

[GwynnInTheHall]

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
-Stephen Roberts

:amen:

[Fresno Bob]

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
-Stephen Roberts

that's frakking awesome

[Wonderboy]

I've never understood why adherents of any religion find it so easy to dismiss other religions and yet are shocked when someone rejects theirs. I've said it before, but in the main, religious beliefs are an accident of birth.

[ShadeEagle]

I've read the major scriptures and writings of most of the world's most prominent religions and some of the more obscure from the Jains to the Christians to the Navajo. What they have told me is that if you drill down deep enough you find threads that run through all of them-- respect and kindness to our fellow men and our planet, charity, a desire for justice, pragmatism, family. When those threads show up everywhere in thoughts about god and the universe, I believe it makes sense to heed them. I consider myself at base to be a Christian first because it is my family's origin (Sicillian Catholicism, German Lutheranism and English Anglicanism) and second because in the tradition and base message of Jesus I find the best distillation of those universalist principles in one single sentence-- "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". Honestly my identification as a Christian is just a label-- I am a human being and resident of this universe before anything else and the labels are of less and less importance to me as I grow older and watch my children, who are the only testaments of the benevolence of the universe I need, grow into their places in this reality we inhabit.

Incidentally, I reached the same conclusion through a different route; however, I opted towards agnosticism over Christianity (or, as it were, Catholicism - upbringing was purely Catholic, and I've had a few false starts trying to get back into it before I decided that it wasn't going to work). The idea that there's one divine being somehow placed above all the others - or that there's simply one - seems weird to me. On the other hand, outright belief in no god whatsoever doesn't make a ton of sense to me; I just straight-up don't know one way or the other, and I'm okay with it. Doesn't make much difference to me one way or the other.

Where I draw the line is when any religion attempts to move outside those basic tenets; using religion in any form to justify ill treatment of another is deplorable. Although I haven't reasoned this out fully, I can even see this extending to the idea of life after death. The idea that Person A, who's lived the exact same life as Person B with the sole exception of believing in a different god, gets sent to hell instead of heaven doesn't make any sense to me. I tend to not be concerned about exporting these views, though; if someone else believes something else, so be it.

[Gregg]

I've read the major scriptures and writings of most of the world's most prominent religions and some of the more obscure from the Jains to the Christians to the Navajo. What they have told me is that if you drill down deep enough you find threads that run through all of them-- respect and kindness to our fellow men and our planet, charity, a desire for justice, pragmatism, family. When those threads show up everywhere in thoughts about god and the universe, I believe it makes sense to heed them. I consider myself at base to be a Christian first because it is my family's origin (Sicillian Catholicism, German Lutheranism and English Anglicanism) and second because in the tradition and base message of Jesus I find the best distillation of those universalist principles in one single sentence-- "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". Honestly my identification as a Christian is just a label-- I am a human being and resident of this universe before anything else and the labels are of less and less importance to me as I grow older and watch my children, who are the only testaments of the benevolence of the universe I need, grow into their places in this reality we inhabit.

Just as common threads show up in these philosophies that I will heed, there are tons and tons of situational, temporal and political differences that I regard as the interference of man. Bans on homosexuality-- homosexuality being as natural and organic a condition as having red hair or green eyes-- make no sense. The endorsement of slavery makes no sense. Flattering a god who needs no flattery through worship and ritual smacks of our human need of praise to feel good about ourselves. The religions which minimize the intellect, authority and equality of women are clearly doing so to enhance the authority of the men who created the writings and these insistences are beneath the dignity of our species. I do not blame the writers of scripture for the most part-- they sought to establish a society and give it governance b which to function for the most part and exhibited prejudice and malicious intent out of their paradigm far less frequently-- but I similarly see no need to adhere to outmoded and often cruel rules that do nothing to foster our understanding or oneness with existence. They are dross and hinder our personal journeys.

What is my purpose? Got me, hope I find out somewhere along the progression through the universe, but I trust in my knowledge, my instincts and my feelings to see the signposts along the way and interpret them not as static rules but as dynamic waypoints. In that "god's will" is revealed to me as I believe we are all a part of "god"; when Marley sang "A mighty God is a living man" he knew of what he sang, in my opinion. I don't know if there is a specific plan for each of our individual existences but I suspect there is not; as a collective being or energy we'll find the way together or we won't.

Bob, you like that Jesus Christ said love your neighbor as yourself. You "feel" that is right me too. That is why I am not Lutheran, or Catholic, or Methodist or anything else. I take it a step further. The man who said this is also the man who claimed to be The Savior. He claims to be the Son of God. He is the only one that could be the sacrifice for our sins. This is from him. These are his words. There was no political agenda in him, there was no doing this for the money. He came to save us. There is nothing we can add to his works. He told us that there is an after life. He told us he wants to give us the gift of living with him forever. We just have to accept it. Filter the New Testament through the words and actions of Jesus and you will not find a message of hate, politics, or hidden agendas. You hide behind what sinful man has done and allow your own sin nature to blind you from the truth. This is not me saying "I got mine and you don't." This is me saying that the Son of God is offering me who is undeserving a second chance of life with him. Anyone can have it.

You mention cruel rules. Show me one of those in the New Testament, that come from the mouth of Jesus. Jesus did not sin, and does not sin. He lives. My eternal relationship with him has already started. Now the fantastic thing is that he doesn't want us to be all the same. He just wants each of us to be the best that we can be, he wants us to choose the best life that he has created for us. What's best for us is not to ignore him, but include him in our lives.

Let's be honest here. Have you ever given me any reason to care about you? Would anybody mistake our relationship to be one of friends?

If you met the old me, this whole relationship would have been a different ball game. I would have used foul language, I would have called you names, I would have dogged your every snarky post to me an to others. I probably would have been banned. But mostly I would have treated you like I "feel" you have treated me...with snarky disrespect, complete with the rolly eyes.

That is not what Jesus wants me to do. He loves you, he loves me. In reality I have a ton of respect for you in most other areas. Not so much in religion or your communication skills (when some disagrees with you). We are actually alot alike in many ways both good and bad. One of the bad ones is I used to like to attack those who didn't see it my way. So you remind me somewhat of me only smarter.

He is showing me how he wants me to live my life. I am not in competition with others. I will tell you that I want to be the best Christian that I can be. This is not to earn my salvation, it is how I show my love to the one who gave it to me. So I ask him to guide me. He uses scripture and my daily walk (trust), as well as others to accomplish this task. And at the end of it I find myself caring about you. And I ask myself how can this be? I find myself caring about most on this board. Maybe even a little extra for the atheists. Believe me this is no prize for all of you who are reading this. I find myself ill equipped to be of much service.

Lastly, if you spent three years of your adult life night and day with someone watching them teach, watching them live, don't you think that you would be able to remember a lot of it exactly as it happened? Don't you think you could write alot of it down. Now imagine if you had some divine help as well. This telephone example is really really a bad one. That game is played one time and passed around the room. Try it with the Pledge of Allegiance with 12 of your closest friends.

With all sincerity God Bless all of you and yours.

[Fresno Bob]

Lastly, if you spent three years of your adult life night and day with someone watching them teach, watching them live, don't you think that you would be able to remember a lot of it exactly as it happened? Don't you think you could write alot of it down. Now imagine if you had some divine help as well. This telephone example is really really a bad one. That game is played one time and passed around the room. Try it with the Pledge of Allegiance with 12 of your closest friends.

With all sincerity God Bless all of you and yours.

Gregg, here's my problem, the very first thing, Jesus's birthday is wrong. You look at the historical record, a guy name Jesus existed, Mary and Joseph were his parents, the romans have that down right, because they did a census IN THE SPRING, not december. Why do we celebrate christmas in december? To co-opt fine winter pagan festivals. Is it that hard to think that other parts of Jesus's life might have been altered in the telling for other purposes, like the creation of a unified church?

[Bob Kohm]

Bob, you like that Jesus Christ said love your neighbor as yourself. You "feel" that is right me too. That is why I am not Lutheran, or Catholic, or Methodist or anything else. I take it a step further. The man who said this is also the man who claimed to be The Savior. He claims to be the Son of God. He is the only one that could be the sacrifice for our sins. This is from him. These are his words. There was no political agenda in him, there was no doing this for the money. He came to save us. There is nothing we can add to his works. He told us that there is an after life. He told us he wants to give us the gift of living with him forever. We just have to accept it. Filter the New Testament through the words and actions of Jesus and you will not find a message of hate, politics, or hidden agendas. You hide behind what sinful man has done and allow your own sin nature to blind you from the truth. This is not me saying "I got mine and you don't." This is me saying that the Son of God is offering me who is undeserving a second chance of life with him. Anyone can have it.

It's a little bit like being on a carousel talking to you, Gregg-- no matter what we say or do, we always wind up back at your same fallacious insistence that we know what "Jesus Christ" said followed by claiming martyrdom in the face of getting your beliefs challenged. We have no clue or idea of what Jesus Christ said, we know what was written down decades after the fact and we know that even in the four "accepted Gospels" the stories don't match-- so please, enough with the insistence that we know what Jesus said. You believe that what is printed in the Gospels is the word of Jesus Christ-- that's at least an accurate statement. You mention viewing things through filters-- you do realize that is what you are doing, don't you? You are viewing the life of Jesus Christ through the eyes of not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but for the most part through the eyes of followers of theirs writing decades later-- and that's quite a filter, isn't it? I think you'd have to be foolish to simply accept it as whole cloth, Gregg, and that would be just as true for a history of a battle written 35 or 50 years later by the friend of a son of someone who fought it as it is for the Bible.

You mention cruel rules. Show me one of those in the New Testament, that come from the mouth of Jesus. Jesus did not sin, and does not sin. He lives. My eternal relationship with him has already started. Now the fantastic thing is that he doesn't want us to be all the same. He just wants each of us to be the best that we can be, he wants us to choose the best life that he has created for us. What's best for us is not to ignore him, but include him in our lives.

Here's where we start finding politics entering the texts, isn't it? Paul is the mouthpiece for much of the cruelty in the New Testament, the prohibition on homosexuality, the debasement of women and the like. If you'd like to "view this through the filter of Jesus Christ", Gregg, I think you'd better change your position on civil rights, huh? I'll never understand how someone who professes to think like you do-- that you must live your life precisely how Jesus is said to have said in the Bible above all else-- can then turn around and equate the spiteful Paul to him as an equal giver of rules. It fails every logical test.

Let's be honest here. Have you ever given me any reason to care about you? Would anybody mistake our relationship to be one of friends?

And now we reach the martyrdom portion of the discussion... again.

If you met the old me, this whole relationship would have been a different ball game. I would have used foul language, I would have called you names, I would have dogged your every snarky post to me an to others. I probably would have been banned. But mostly I would have treated you like I "feel" you have treated me...with snarky disrespect, complete with the rolly eyes.

Gregg, I have little or no respect for your position as, quite honestly, it has been demonstrated to be preposterous time and again over the span of years not just by me but by others. That is the honest truth. Do I have respect for you? Absolutely and I was unaware that we didn't have a relationship that could never be thought of as friendship. What you and people like you, people who put belief in front of demonstrable reality and who are wholly intolerant of even the possibility that their position can be questioned, fail to get all too often is that people don't see you as your beliefs. I can think your unquestioning belief of the Bible and your slavish devotion to the idea that everyone who believes differently than you will go to hell as your beliefs, but I can also think of you as a guy who plays fantasy baseball, who can be funny at times and who I would have a beer with. I can think that Fly can be just insanely wrong in his views on education administration issues at times but it has nothing to do with how I view him personally. I can think that my neighbor, a die hard Red Sox fan, is delusional in his hatred of the Yankees but still shovel his walk when he's got a broken ankle. If you feel differently I'll lose no sleep over it, but if you intend to keep on with this unseemly whining about me "attacking" you then you should at least realize that I'm doing no such thing but that I am attacking the ideas that you are putting out there.

He is showing me how he wants me to live my life. I am not in competition with others.

Sure you are. You are constantly competing to put out this intolerant version of religion and salvation that you've devoted yourself to and trying to outcompete anyone whose views are different than yours. Your goal may be to "save" them, but let's be honest about it-- it's a competition, your religion against theirs.

Lastly, if you spent three years of your adult life night and day with someone watching them teach, watching them live, don't you think that you would be able to remember a lot of it exactly as it happened? Don't you think you could write alot of it down. Now imagine if you had some divine help as well. This telephone example is really really a bad one. That game is played one time and passed around the room. Try it with the Pledge of Allegiance with 12 of your closest friends.

In god I trust that this is a pathetically bad analogy, Gregg. The Pledge of Allegiance? Greg, there are what, around 15 "legit" Gospels floating about and they all disagree on major events and sayings, even the "big four" that can't get on the same page about something as fundamental as the Nativity amongst so many other things. Not only is the Bible a colossal game of telephone, it is also a document shot through with political messaging and that was composed not only as a political treatise by the Romans who "sanctified" it but also had clear motivations to be corrupted time and time again. COmparing that to sitting around a room reciting the Pledge is pretty out there, I'm afraid.

With all sincerity, have a nice day

[nots]

and who are wholly intolerant of even the possibility that their position can be questioned

Putting aside the topic of this thread.... for you to write that phrase, well that right there is some grade A irony. With all sincerity, that made me chuckle on an otherwise bad day.

[Bob Kohm]

Putting aside the topic of this thread.... for you to write that phrase, well that right there is some grade A irony. With all sincerity, that made me chuckle on an otherwise bad day.

Sometimes it's better to be ignorant and chuckling than informed, I guess. Whatever fills your hours, friend.

Argue all you want with my positions, but do it with the awareness that I am prepared to defend them.

[Fresno Bob]

again, I put it out there....If everyone can accept that something as basic as when Jesus was born was manipulated to co-opt pagan practices, why is a stretch to think that some guys pulled his body out of the tomb and that someone found some extra bread and fish, rather than to think miracles occurred.

[nots]

Argue all you want with my positions, but do it with the awareness that I am prepared to defend them with snark, dismissiveness and intolerance.

Fixed.

[Bob Kohm]

Fixed.

Weaker and weaker, nots. You started out here so strong, too

[nots]

Weaker and weaker, nots. You started out here so strong, too

I'm in it for the self-amusement.