Progress

[Gregg]

Frankly, I think that it's inevitable as the natural world becomes more explainable through rational means that faith will necessarily suffer for it.

There are still, obviously, lots of unanswered questions in this world and most of the "big" ones still have no rational answer that's universally agreed on. Why am I here? Where did life come from? What happens when I die? The answers to those questions and others can be found in religious texts but are more difficult to come by without faith.

However, much of the purported truth in books of faith has been proven to be empirically false. The world is not 6,000 years old. Man (and woman) were not merely created as they currently exist, but rather evolved over a long time.

Much of the Bible is already largely ignored by the vast majority of Christian practitioners. No one encourages anyone to burn prostitutes alive. People generally overlook Paul's questionable attitude towards women. Slavery is not acceptable. People eat shrimp and shellfish without fear of reprisal. Homosexuality, strangely, has not yet gone the way of the shellfish but is gaining more acceptance all the time.

As Stephen Hawking said, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."

I thought you had a better understanding of the Bible and Christianity?

I also wonder why you find it necessary to exaggerate to prove your point? You know the Fundy's claim 8-10,000 not six. 2,000-4,000 years is big difference (not in the scope of millions and millions). And even that point is debated among many Christians, with neither side being a deal breaker. Doesn't science tell you that mankind evolved from some primordial ooze (dirt)? The same place Adam came from? You would throw out the truths that the Bible has because we do not fully understand how God works in regards to creation? You ignore the order that is in everything and think of it as a cosmic accident.

Anyway, I can eat shelfish, pork or anything else. God the Son has so ordained it. You have totally missed the mark on slavery. Slavery was an ugly fact of life in the beginings of Christianity. The Book is teaching how Christian slaves are to live. You mention Paul who in fact was against slavery (and there is an example of where he petitioned to free one and offered pay to set one free) . Since we are talking about Paul you once again miss the mark. He is not against women. He said for himself (and others that were so called) that marriage would get in the way of his walk/mission.

Regarding prostitues; did you forget the kindness Jesus gave to them, the forgiveness, the defense, the love?

Show me one passage in the New Testament where Jesus approves of his followers to use violence against the unbelievers or anybody for that matter.

You are right on one account: The Bible is largely ignored by many who claim to be Christians. You think of it as good thing. I think of it as the reasons why we are in this mess. No Jesus loving God fearing Christian should kill their enemies, they are to love them. I am not talking about self defense or defending the weak.

Some Christians are afraid to be treated in the real world as Bob treats the Christians on this board. After all this time I was tempted to just ignore any further discussions. It seems like a waste of time. Then again I am glad that some took the time to explain some of the misconceptions I had.

[SeaDogStat]

There's never a good popcorn eating smilie around when you need one

[Gregg]

Wow, that post is rife with inaccuracies and fallacies. I guess I'll address a couple of them, but mostly just because I'm a glutton for punishment:

- Whether "fundy's" claim that the world is 6,000 or 10,000 years old is not the point. The earth is somewhere around 4.5 BILLION years old. Fundamentalists are so enormously wrong on that issue it's laughable. You're right that 2-4k years is not a big difference "in the scope of millions and millions". Fundamentalist assertions about how old the earth is are extremely easily dismissed as being false.

- The same book (Leviticus) that tells Christians that homosexuality is an abomination also tells Christians that eating shellfish is an abomination. Sh!t, do whatever the hell you want. Have gay sex while eating lobster and trimming your beard (also an abomination). I don't care. Leviticus is a ridiculous collection of garbage and its ramifications have literally harmed people for far too long.

- I referenced Paul's misogynistic ways, not his views on slavery. Paul was pretty clearly down on women. Given that, I could give two sh!ts what his antiquated views on pretty much anything else were, slavery included. His foolishness about women needing to stay silent, to submit to their husbands, blah blah were probably just signs of the times, but hey if he's a mouthpiece of GOD.....

- Your statement about Jesus vis a vis prostitution simply proves the point I was making. You focus, for some reason, on Jesus' treatment of prostitutes but ignore the extreme violence inflicted on prostitutes in Genesis and Judges. If I were a Christian I'd do the same. There's some pretty crazy and evil stuff in a few of those books. Christians are pretty much forced to focus on the less crazy parts of the Bible and ignore the rest.

- Slavery and its treatment in the Bible was probably also an antiquated sign of the times in which it was written. No reasonable person would agree with a god that ordered the massacre of entire settlements and for survivors to be forced into slavery (Judges 3:28-30, also Leviticus and Exodus). Therefore, those things are just ignored and/or glossed over.


Oh, and spare me the trite Christian persecution syndrome. You guys have this entire country by the nuts. You'll get no pity from me about how you're afraid you'll be treated in the real world. Try being a Muslim around here then get back to me.

I am not afraid.

If I wrote the very things that you just did I would be blasted. You want "us" to be tolerant of anything you say. Then even when I discuss it in a calm and respectful way, you go on the attack. Did you ever consider that you are very much like the fundy's you rail against?

[senorsheep]

I am not afraid.

If I wrote the very things that you just did I would be blasted. You want "us" to be tolerant of anything you say. Then even when I discuss it in a calm and respectful way, you go on the attack. Did you ever consider that you are very much like the fundy's you rail against?

If you really want to rile him, tell him he's very much like Bhob...

[Gregg]

There's never a good popcorn eating smilie around when you need one

My Muslim Doctor has forbidden me from eating popcorn.

[Bob Kohm]

Eating popcorn is an abomination.

Only if you're beardless.

[billbuckner]

Whole lot of QQing in here

[Gregg]

If you really want to rile him, tell him he's very much like Bhob...

I actually do not find him all that much like Bob. I know where Eld stands. Bob confuses me to no end. He claims to be a believer, and I find no evidence in any of his posts or discussions (not that he has to prove anything to me).

[Bob Kohm]

I am not afraid.

If I wrote the very things that you just did I would be blasted. You want "us" to be tolerant of anything you say. Then even when I discuss it in a calm and respectful way, you go on the attack. Did you ever consider that you are very much like the fundy's you rail against?

Attack? ElD didn't attack, he disagreed with you and illustrated the basis for his disagreement. As has been said, you need to check the persecution complex at the door.

[Gregg]

Whole lot of QQing in here

Nope. You would be very wrong to assume this.

[billbuckner]

Nope. You would be very wrong to assume this.

Don't ever question me again. There's no one more qualified than me to judge this sort of thing.

[Bob Kohm]

I actually do not find him all that much like Bob. I know where Eld stands. Bob confuses me to no end. He claims to be a believer, and I find no evidence in any of his posts or discussions (not that he has to prove anything to me).

It's really very simple. In my view there is something larger than us in universe and I believe that it is benevolent; you or I may call it god, others may call it The Great Spirit or Allah, others might call it Nature or mathematics. I believe that trying to relate to it through a set of man created rituals that aren't even shared amongst all people and that serve to divide us is an outmoded exercise in futility. If you say "God thinks homosexuality is a sin" I say "Homosexuals exist in this universe and harm nobody by their presence" and thus dismiss what I see as the artificial prohibition against them imposed by the Christian religion.

[Gregg]

Don't ever question me again. There's no one more qualified than me to judge this sort of thing.

Now who is QQing?

[billbuckner]

Now who is QQing?

You are. Again. I'll go to sleep like a baby tonight while you'll be rustling and bustling about how I've owned you yet again. Goodnight sweet prince.

[Gregg]

It's really very simple. In my view there is something larger than us in universe and I believe that it is benevolent; you or I may call it god, others may call it The Great Spirit or Allah, others might call it Nature or mathematics. I believe that trying to relate to it through a set of man created rituals that aren't even shared amongst all people and that serve to divide us is an outmoded exercise in futility. If you say "God thinks homosexuality is a sin" I say "Homosexuals exist in this universe and harm nobody by their presence" and thus dismiss what I see as the artificial prohibition against them imposed by the Christian religion.

And where do you get this information from? Who is the higher authority?