Little League Sportsmanship

[Gregg]

at some point the players on first have to stop leading off the bag and just stand there. I guess there is still no rule against throwing over if the player isn't leading off, but would it continue to be acceptable to call for your pitcher to throw over if the runner is standing on the bag?

See post #25.

[Pogues]

Out of curiosity, how long does a normal little league inning last? Seems to me 12 minutes isn't a lot of time.

[dslaw]

He understands that a coach who would do that isn't someone we'd want to play for.

At least the other coach did teach someone something. Good for your kid.

[heyelander]

Taking pitches to extend the at bats doesn't seem to be too outlandish to me. If the pitcher throws strikes, it could put the delaying team at a disadvantage, so that's a risk they take, and it has a natural consequence and a limited effect on extending the game. But throwing over to first base 5 or 6 times for every runner simply in order to delay the game is ridiculous. It serves no purpose. I don't think umpires would put up with that in the major leagues, where millions of dollars are at stake on the results of the games. So I'm pretty sure it's not appropriate in an 11-year-old select tournament game, either.

+1

I don't really have a problem with slowing the game down, I have a problem with delaying it.

[swampdragon]

Good for you and good for your son. There are far more important things than winning, particularly as an 11 year old.

Close but still not quite it

Good for you and good for your son. There are for more important things than winning - ESPECIALLY ONE BASEBALL GAME, particularly as an 11 year.

[baldgriff]

Still waiting for someone to step up and tell me where the line is. Apparently the context around the competition level and that its a tournament are irrelevant to the conversation for some of you....

Since Ive taken the hits answering all of you questions - please someone tell me if the kids were 12, 13, 14 + + + + Where is the line?

[heyelander]

Still waiting for someone to step up and tell me where the line is. Apparently the context around the competition level and that its a tournament are irrelevant to the conversation for some of you....

Since Ive taken the hits answering all of you questions - please someone tell me if the kids were 12, 13, 14 + + + + Where is the line?

I think the line is where seitzer put it. It's between slowing a game down (taking pitches, running the ball) that have possible negative ramifications (striking out, 3 and out) and wasting time (going out to talk to the pitcher for no reason, throwing over to first time after time after time. You argue that they could throw the ball away, but my guess is the pitcher wasn't going with his best move to first on every pitch. Safe little throws just meant to waste time.

[swampdragon]

Still waiting for someone to step up and tell me where the line is. Apparently the context around the competition level and that its a tournament are irrelevant to the conversation for some of you....

Since Ive taken the hits answering all of you questions - please someone tell me if the kids were 12, 13, 14 + + + + Where is the line?

The fact that it is a tournament and the age is irrelevant - it is an embarrassing way to win at any age - it is just a game

[Don Quixote]

The fact that it is a tournament and the age is irrelevant - it is an embarrassing way to win at any age - it is just a game

What you're forgetting is that for some people, there is no such thing as embarrassment, only winning and losing. Some people just don't give a sh** about right and wrong.

[Bob Kohm]

Where's the line? The line is where this stops being a game and becomes something else, something more real than a game and uglier than a game. That's where the line is. Otherwise, being an asshole and abusing and exploiting loophole rules is just being an asshole. So you tell us, Griff-- when does youth baseball, played for nothing but fun and maybe a trophy, stop being a game? When does it become more important to come home with a $35 trophy than it is to come home with a group of kids who have honor and the right to be proud of the way they played the game? When does it become more important to teach kids to mimic the very worst qualities of lawyers than to be kids?

One of the best coaches my son Marcus ever had was a guy by the name of Mike Winters, who coached his last season of Fall Rookie baseball when he was eight. The Volcanoes were up against the Bulls, coached by a guy who epitomized everything wrong in youth sports-- a former college baseball star who blew out his arm and got bitter over the whole thing. He was busy making his own son's life a misery of ridiculous expectations and crushing disappointment, which was all the more a shame because Brock was a hell of a young ballplayer and a nice kid even if he could never do enough to quell his Dad's Great Santini act. In Rookie ball there are no umps-- it's machine pitch with a Louisville Slugger Blue Flame catapult machine, three swinging strikes or five good pitches and you're out, with the coaches calling the outs and fair/foul lines in the field. Well, Brock's Dad was out near third base when my son hit a screaming line shot down the left field line with runners on second and third. There was no question that the ball was fair, but the coach loudly called it foul freezing the runners while his left fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in to the infield. One of our team's Dads started to go ballistic when Mike told him to ease up. Mike had served as an armor officer in the '91 War and then served two tours as an infantry battalion commander in the next Iraqi War. Mike looked at Mark and told him that no matter how the game turned out nobody was gonna die, nobody was gonna have to be flown out in a chopper or see their friend get blown up by an IED because this was just a game of baseball. Marcus struck out that at bat; the kid after him hit a shot into the gap that scored the two runs although we went on to lose the game.

It's a freaking game,not a cause to teach children to behave like assholes, Griff. That's the only fucking line that matters.

[baldgriff]

Where's the line? The line is where this stops being a game and becomes something else, something more real than a game and uglier than a game. That's where the line is. Otherwise, being an asshole and abusing and exploiting loophole rules is just being an asshole. So you tell us, Griff-- when does youth baseball, played for nothing but fun and maybe a trophy, stop being a game? When does it become more important to come home with a $35 trophy than it is to come home with a group of kids who have honor and the right to be proud of the way they played the game? When does it become more important to teach kids to mimic the very worst qualities of lawyers than to be kids?

One of the best coaches my son Marcus ever had was a guy by the name of Mike Winters, who coached his last season of Fall Rookie baseball when he was eight. The Volcanoes were up against the Bulls, coached by a guy who epitomized everything wrong in youth sports-- a former college baseball star who blew out his arm and got bitter over the whole thing. He was busy making his own son's life a misery of ridiculous expectations and crushing disappointment, which was all the more a shame because Brock was a hell of a young ballplayer and a nice kid even if he could never do enough to quell his Dad's Great Santini act. In Rookie ball there are no umps-- it's machine pitch with a Louisville Slugger Blue Flame catapult machine, three swinging strikes or five good pitches and you're out, with the coaches calling the outs and fair/foul lines in the field. Well, Brock's Dad was out near third base when my son hit a screaming line shot down the left field line with runners on second and third. There was no question that the ball was fair, but the coach loudly called it foul freezing the runners while his left fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in to the infield. One of our team's Dads started to go ballistic when Mike told him to ease up. Mike had served as an armor officer in the '91 War and then served two tours as an infantry battalion commander in the next Iraqi War. Mike looked at Mark and told him that no matter how the game turned out nobody was gonna die, nobody was gonna have to be flown out in a chopper or see their friend get blown up by an IED because this was just a game of baseball. Marcus struck out that at bat; the kid after him hit a shot into the gap that scored the two runs although we went on to lose the game.

It's a freaking game,not a cause to teach children to behave like assholes, Griff. That's the only fucking line that matters.

Thanks for your insight Bob. I appreciate where you are coming from - and I dont believe that I ever coached a game to teach any kid to be an asshole. You and I may disagree about whether the coach in the original scenario was over the line or not. At some point, when we play competetively the ends we are attempting to earn is the win. Whether its a shirt, a trophy, DQ coupons, whatever - the winner gets the ring........

I will still maintain that if this scenario was a football game or a basketball game there would be no bitching. The reason this is an issue is because someone placed a time limit on a game where time limits dont work and are extremely difficult to enforce.

[hacko]

Thanks for your insight Bob. I appreciate where you are coming from - and I dont believe that I ever coached a game to teach any kid to be an asshole. You and I may disagree about whether the coach in the original scenario was over the line or not. At some point, when we play competetively the ends we are attempting to earn is the win. Whether its a shirt, a trophy, DQ coupons, whatever - the winner gets the ring........

I will still maintain that if this scenario was a football game or a basketball game there would be no bitching. The reason this is an issue is because someone placed a time limit on a game where time limits dont work and are extremely difficult to enforce.

But it isn't a football or basketball game where part of the strategy is time management. They put a time limit on it (little league games) because A. we don't want to stay there forever and B . More importantly probably a game right after schedule on the field. Teach the rules of the game . THERE IS NO STALLING IN BASEBALL

[nots]

Where's the line? The line is where this stops being a game and becomes something else, something more real than a game and uglier than a game. That's where the line is. Otherwise, being an asshole and abusing and exploiting loophole rules is just being an asshole. So you tell us, Griff-- when does youth baseball, played for nothing but fun and maybe a trophy, stop being a game? When does it become more important to come home with a $35 trophy than it is to come home with a group of kids who have honor and the right to be proud of the way they played the game? When does it become more important to teach kids to mimic the very worst qualities of lawyers than to be kids?

One of the best coaches my son Marcus ever had was a guy by the name of Mike Winters, who coached his last season of Fall Rookie baseball when he was eight. The Volcanoes were up against the Bulls, coached by a guy who epitomized everything wrong in youth sports-- a former college baseball star who blew out his arm and got bitter over the whole thing. He was busy making his own son's life a misery of ridiculous expectations and crushing disappointment, which was all the more a shame because Brock was a hell of a young ballplayer and a nice kid even if he could never do enough to quell his Dad's Great Santini act. In Rookie ball there are no umps-- it's machine pitch with a Louisville Slugger Blue Flame catapult machine, three swinging strikes or five good pitches and you're out, with the coaches calling the outs and fair/foul lines in the field. Well, Brock's Dad was out near third base when my son hit a screaming line shot down the left field line with runners on second and third. There was no question that the ball was fair, but the coach loudly called it foul freezing the runners while his left fielder retrieved the ball and threw it back in to the infield. One of our team's Dads started to go ballistic when Mike told him to ease up. Mike had served as an armor officer in the '91 War and then served two tours as an infantry battalion commander in the next Iraqi War. Mike looked at Mark and told him that no matter how the game turned out nobody was gonna die, nobody was gonna have to be flown out in a chopper or see their friend get blown up by an IED because this was just a game of baseball. Marcus struck out that at bat; the kid after him hit a shot into the gap that scored the two runs although we went on to lose the game.

It's a freaking game,not a cause to teach children to behave like assholes, Griff. That's the only fucking line that matters.

The Great Santini is such an undervalued movie.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I will still maintain that if this scenario was a football game or a basketball game there would be no bitching. The reason this is an issue is because someone placed a time limit on a game where time limits dont work and are extremely difficult to enforce.

So you have no problem with football players faking injuries in order to stop the clock, with linemen laying on the other team's running back or receiver for 30 seconds so he can't get up to start the next play, etc.? Basically anything goes as long as you are trying to win and you can get away with it?

[baldgriff]

But it isn't a football or basketball game where part of the strategy is time management. They put a time limit on it (little league games) because A. we don't want to stay there forever and B . More importantly probably a game right after schedule on the field. Teach the rules of the game . THERE IS NO STALLING IN BASEBALL

My point is this - you have fundamentally changed the game by placing a time limit on the game. Softball games (both fast and slow) have rules instituted to try and eliminate some of the clock management things. I get that you all dont like the stall tactic - in football its taking every second between plays, not passing and ensuring the clock continues to run.

Would I support the fake injury or the laying on a guy to keep him from getting back to the huddle? No I would not support those. Why - because they are against the rules. Hell the NFL penalizes teams if they have an injury or fake injury in the last two minutes of a game. So it is against the rules of the game

As to Jefe's scenario 12 minutes is really not a long time and again the pitcher still has to make pitches to the batter - so if the offense of Jefe's team performs the tactic is really a moot point and quite honestly works against the team that ultimately won.

Baseball with time limits invite the strategy of managing the clock - you may not like it (and from a baseball purist position I understand the outrage) but just because you dont think baseball is supposed to be played that way - the game has been fundamentally changed by introducing a clock. By introducing the clock, the clock creates strategies that are normally foreign to the game.