Little League Sportsmanship

[swampdragon]

I did answer that question. I have been on both sides of the situation. True you didnt ask anything about football - someone else referenced football in the discussion and I encorporated that comment into my response.

I think I have been pretty consistent in my response related to this. This situation seems to be "Select Ball" from the description. These are likely 5th and 6th graders. The teams are playing tournaments every couple weeks, so its pretty clear here that the play is above instuctional and is competitive. By this I mean that the focus here is on winning games. You dont play multiple tournaments as an instructional team. You also understand that the only way to keep playing is to win. The only way to win a tournament is to be the team that doesnt lose.

So with all of the context set - I would say again I have been on both sides of this. Would I employ this strategy? No, but Im not going to piss and moan because the other team did. My team still has to hit the ball or take walks and figure out ways to win. My job as the manager of team B is to figure out how to beat team A that is employing the strategy. My job as the team manager is not to point out to my kids that the other team is stalling, so lets feel sorry for ourselves and have some lame excuse as to why we lost. Make the pitcher throw strikes - take some walks - hustle for some extra bases. Make the other team start throwing the ball around. The still have to get 3 outs and they still have to pitch and they still have to field and throw the ball. The game isnt ending in 12 minutes, the game if we havent scored enough runs to take the lead while that 12 minutes has elapsed.


I again will say that if this was a conversation about football and a team running a total of 24 plays in the 4th 12 minute quarter by taking all 30 seconds between snaps not one person would be here saying the coach did anything but use the rules of the game to his advantage. However, because this is baseball there is supposed to be some higher meaning or lesson - because its baseball.

From my personal coaching experience - not the same age - but I think it will give you insight into me. I coached a Sr High boys slow-pitch softball team. In a tournament we were playing against what was supposed to be one or the better teams in the tournament. The Center Fielder shows up and had forgotten his glove and his cleats ( he was wearing boat dock shoes ). I brought the team together and I told them their player forgot his glove and he may come over here to ask if he can use one of theirs. I told them that the decision was their's. One of the CF's teammates had an extra glove - so no stress here. However, no one had extra shoes. In the first inning he goes out to the outfield barefoot. When I saw that I approached the umpire and told him that the rules state that all players are required to wear shoes as a safety measure. He was required to wear the cool shoes he showed up in - of course he could not run in them as they had zero traction. We proceed to hit ball after ball to the gaps making him run in those shoes. We won that game......

The other manager said outloud when the shoes were required "Damn Scott and his Rule Book". The rules are the rules and they are there to define the parameters of the game. Play within the rules and I dont have any complaint. Hell I honestly thought Red Bowyou's taking a knee for a whole half was genius - until the water boy showed up.

thanks for answering the question - you said it all and set an example for all of your players

[baldgriff]

thanks for answering the question - you said it all and set an example for all of your players

Do you believe that I was wrong for making the kid wear shoes - even though it was to my teams advantage?

[Mithrandir]

Baldgriff....welcome to the club....the club of having a certain opinion that you feel is justified and getting told you are nuts by the RJ mob

I quit that club awhile ago....

[TranaGreg]

"Damn Scott and his Rule Book"

hmmm, good name for a band.

there, my contribution to this thread.

[baldgriff]

Baldgriff....welcome to the club....the club of having a certain opinion that you feel is justified and getting told you are nuts by the RJ mob

I quit that club awhile ago....

I have no problems holding this opinion and defending it. Why? Because there are always counter strategies and when playing in competitive situations like single elimination tournaments the only way to get the trophy at the end is to win the game.

[heyelander]

at some point the players on first have to stop leading off the bag and just stand there. I guess there is still no rule against throwing over if the player isn't leading off, but would it continue to be acceptable to call for your pitcher to throw over if the runner is standing on the bag?

[baldgriff]

at some point the players on first have to stop leading off the bag and just stand there. I guess there is still no rule against throwing over if the player isn't leading off, but would it continue to be acceptable to call for your pitcher to throw over if the runner is standing on the bag?

It would be a balk as there would be no need to hold the runner on. Also, I guarantee that this kid balked at least once in the last 12 minutes if he was throwing over that often.

[TranaGreg]

so I lied; I have more to say.

The games have a time limit

for me this is the crux of the issue. Baseball rules were not designed to consider games having a time limit. If they had been you can bet that there would have been an entire section on what is/isn't permitted.

So by putting a time limit on the games - I played in enough tournaments to understand this - you have the basic rules of the game being used for purposes they weren't intended for (e.g. throwing to first base).

When rules are exploited for purposes unrelated to the reason they exist, well in my opinion that's poor sportsmanship. Unless it's a lawyer's league, then of course it's part of the game.

[TranaGreg]

It would be a balk as there would be no need to hold the runner on. Also, I guarantee that this kid balked at least once in the last 12 minutes if he was throwing over that often.

a balk is based on trying to deceive the runner - how does this qualify? If I were the coach I'd argue that my pitcher was simply trying to time the runner taking his lead off the bag.

[baldgriff]

a balk is based on trying to deceive the runner - how does this qualify? If I were the coach I'd argue that my pitcher was simply trying to time the runner taking his lead off the bag.

There is no need to throw to the base. I dont know the rule and section, but I have seen that called before. Whether it is correct or not honestly I dont know.

[baldgriff]

so I lied; I have more to say.



for me this is the crux of the issue. Baseball rules were not designed to consider games having a time limit. If they had been you can bet that there would have been an entire section on what is/isn't permitted.

So by putting a time limit on the games - I played in enough tournaments to understand this - you have the basic rules of the game being used for purposes they weren't intended for (e.g. throwing to first base).

When rules are exploited for purposes unrelated to the reason they exist, well in my opinion that's poor sportsmanship. Unless it's a lawyer's league, then of course it's part of the game.

If the rule set is flawed fix the rule set, but until that time both teams are playing under the same set of rules. Until the rule set is fixed, the manager is running a slow huddle.

I agree that baseball is a game that should not have a time limit on it...... You change the game by placing the time limit on it. IF MLB had a time limit on it games would only got 5 - 7 innings.

[Bob Kohm]

As president of a baseball league with 800+ players from age four through sixteen, I deal with this kind of crap all the time. The bottom line is that competition is a good and necessary thing to teach kids-- the question is if you are going to be teaching it in an unscrupulous manner, as this Coach did and as Baldrgriff is unfortunately advocating, or if you're going to teach competition as a healthy and normal part of life.

What happened here is "win at any cost" horse shit. Yes, many argue that that is the way life works when they're adults and fighting it out in the boardroom or wherever-- no shit that's how it is because that's how these tools are teaching it. Competition has to be taught as doing your best to win the game within the context of the game, not by exploiting loopholes and using rules in manners for which they are not intended just to steal a victory. The attitude that "a win is a win" is what poisons youth sports and the fact that people teach it over and over again is one of the reasons our society is where it is today.

Whoever it was in the thread that opined that the Coach was probably a mediocre youth athlete is probably close to the truth-- the two worst classes of parents who get into coaching baseball are the guys who played college baseball and think that treating ten year olds the way their coaches treated them as 20 year olds is the pinnacle of good teaching and the frustrated Dads who sucked at baseball as a kid and are damned well going to live out that missed glory by any means possible. There are exceptions on both ends of that spectrum, but with years in as a coach, commissioner and now as president of the League with its house & travel select programs I've seen this time and again.

As for the nonsensical "if this was football" notion... please. Running out the clock is an accepted part of that game, but so is tackling the guy trying to throw the ball. I fail to see the point of the comparison that Griff is trying to make.

Douchebaggery in youth sports is rampant and is something that needs to be stomped out. In my League we work hard to end that crap-- and we win tournaments and produce high quality High School ballpayers doing it-- guys with great skills and also with class and honor. There are plenty of Leagues in the hugely Type-A personality driven Fairfax County/Arlington/DC area where we play who do it the wrong way. It is immensely satisfying when we beat them.

[Jefe]

Just curious; did you by any chance tell your baserunner to not take a lead?

How did your team react to the other teams tactic?

You could look at this in many ways. How important is it to win (playing "within" the rules)? Using all tools to win a championship. Or it is just an 11 year old baseball game, no big deal. Or maybe an opportunity to teach a life lesson. Is this how you want to win?

Maybe a combination of all of them?

Were I the coach, i would have.

The kids didn't realize what the other team was doing. Our coaches did, I would think, but didn't react in any way.

I talked about it with my son. He understands that a coach who would do that isn't someone we'd want to play for.

[baldgriff]

As president of a baseball league with 800+ players from age four through sixteen, I deal with this kind of crap all the time. The bottom line is that competition is a good and necessary thing to teach kids-- the question is if you are going to be teaching it in an unscrupulous manner, as this Coach did and as Baldrgriff is unfortunately advocating, or if you're going to teach competition as a healthy and normal part of life.

What happened here is "win at any cost" horse shit. Yes, many argue that that is the way life works when they're adults and fighting it out in the boardroom or wherever-- no shit that's how it is because that's how these tools are teaching it. Competition has to be taught as doing your best to win the game within the context of the game, not by exploiting loopholes and using rules in manners for which they are not intended just to steal a victory. The attitude that "a win is a win" is what poisons youth sports and the fact that people teach it over and over again is one of the reasons our society is where it is today.

Whoever it was in the thread that opined that the Coach was probably a mediocre youth athlete is probably close to the truth-- the two worst classes of parents who get into coaching baseball are the guys who played college baseball and think that treating ten year olds the way their coaches treated them as 20 year olds is the pinnacle of good teaching and the frustrated Dads who sucked at baseball as a kid and are damned well going to live out that missed glory by any means possible. There are exceptions on both ends of that spectrum, but with years in as a coach, commissioner and now as president of the League with its house & travel select programs I've seen this time and again.

As for the nonsensical "if this was football" notion... please. Running out the clock is an accepted part of that game, but so is tackling the guy trying to throw the ball. I fail to see the point of the comparison that Griff is trying to make.

Douchebaggery in youth sports is rampant and is something that needs to be stomped out. In my League we work hard to end that crap-- and we win tournaments and produce high quality High School ballpayers doing it-- guys with great skills and also with class and honor. There are plenty of Leagues in the hugely Type-A personality driven Fairfax County/Arlington/DC area where we play who do it the wrong way. It is immensely satisfying when we beat them.

I have stated that when I coached I coached instructional league ball for kids in 2nd grade or so. I freely state that I would not do this in an instructional league where the kids are learning the game. The intention of those games is to learn the game.

The context of this scenario however is a tournament being played by kids that are playing a competitive what has been presented as competitive ball ("Select Ball"). These are not kids just learning to throw or play the game. They are playing at a competitive level. The team that lost still had an opportunity to win this game - as long as they hit the ball and take advantage of any mistakes the other team makes.

We are playing a game that is being played with a time limit - Some may say that the analogy to football doesnt make sense. Once you place the time limit on the game it is no longer apples to oranges. What is any different?

In Jefe's situation his team could have taken the lead if they had scored enough runs there by forcing the other team to catch up or lose. At least in his situation the team had the opportunity to get pitched to and attempt to score against the team that won.

In football teams run up the middle and take knees to keep the ball away from the opposition in order to prevent them from scoring. Jefe's team still had the opportunity to score when they were at bat. The game didnt stop at 12 minutes. Hell if they wanted to, the could have batted for 20 minutes put up 10 runs and the other team is now stuck because of the strategy they employed (you dont even get that option in football).

In basketball when a team is up they frequently implement the four corners keep away. The intent is to run the clock down, thus limiting the oppositions ability to score against you. Again if Jefe's team gets a couple hits and scores some runs they still have the opportunity to score. In basketball, you usually have to foul in order to get the ball back. So either the opposition runs the clock down and scores or gets to shoot free throws on the foul.

Lets also keep in mind that according to Jefe - the kids had no idea that there was any strategy or "douche baggery" being employed. To them it was part of the game. It only became evident when some parent or coach got upset because they lost in a game that has a time limit.

Part of time limit games (no matter what the game and whether you like it or not) is managing the clock and how it affects your team. If the kids had no idea what was going on, it wasnt affecting them adversely or causing any additional pressure on them. So as long as they get hits - they still have the ability to win.


I will not apologize if you all think I am advocating "douchebaggery" - Given the context of the situation and the fact that we are playing in a tournament using timed games it is part of how the game gets played.

My question to all of you that think I am off base here - tell me where the line is? If they are playing in the State Championship game? What about a game getting them to the Little League World Series? Where is that line?

[Kevin Seitzer]

My question to all of you that think I am off base here - tell me where the line is? If they are playing in the State Championship game? What about a game getting them to the Little League World Series? Where is that line?

Taking pitches to extend the at bats doesn't seem to be too outlandish to me. If the pitcher throws strikes, it could put the delaying team at a disadvantage, so that's a risk they take, and it has a natural consequence and a limited effect on extending the game. But throwing over to first base 5 or 6 times for every runner simply in order to delay the game is ridiculous. It serves no purpose. I don't think umpires would put up with that in the major leagues, where millions of dollars are at stake on the results of the games. So I'm pretty sure it's not appropriate in an 11-year-old select tournament game, either.