Verizon Customer?

[johnnya24]

This makes an interesting read in the light of statements made before that committee this afternoon. In response to the query if it was justifiable to data mine millions of people just to get one or two little pieces of information, General Alexander suggested it was indeed justifiable. He mentioned that there were possibly "dozens" of instances when this data was used to foil plots in the US and abroad. Yet despite there being so few, he could only remember the much vaunted Zazi case. He also confirmed in answering this question that the mobile data and Internet data was used in unison, despite the separate court orders.

Even before Alexanders statement, there were appeals by the Obama administration to the Zazi case among their justification for PRISM.

But court documents lodged in the US and UK, as well as interviews with involved parties, suggest that data-mining through Prism and other NSA programmes played a relatively minor role in the interception of the two plots. Conventional surveillance techniques, in both cases including old-fashioned tip-offs from intelligence services in Britain, appear to have initiated the investigations.

Excuses, justifications, rationalization, scare-mongering. They just want the data.

[johnnya24]

But should metadata be a valid tool in the prevention of crime/terrorism? If a phone in the U.S. suddenly starts making frequent calls to Iraq or Afghanistan, do you think the government should be aware of this activity?

I have already stated that I believe that the intelligence community should be able to work within a grey area. I believe they should be allowed to gather metadata within reason, and they should be made to discard all non-pertinent data immediately. Call it snooping, eavesdropping whatever. I'm not against this.

They should absolutely not be allowed to go to the source, and mine and store everyone's data in perpetuity. That is an utter disgrace and possibly the most serious infringement of mass individual liberty in the history of Liberal Democracy. There have been other more serious infringements within Liberal Democratic systems related to minority groups - slavery (although slavery was inherited), racial discrimination, anti-Semitic laws. But "usually" the really serious infringements occur when democracy is replaced by fascism or another form of autocratic rule or dictatorship. This is happening within the apparatus of Liberal Democracy, and in the process circumventing the Constitution which was set up precisely to prevent this kind of tyrannical control.

Those are the stakes for me ... the most serious infringement of individual freedom in the history of Liberal Democracy.

I guess some folk will just say I'm over exaggerating. WE easily forget the lessons of history. The sad truth is that most of our population probably don't give a shit. As long as they have their TV's and their Xboxes, they couldn't give a crap about the rest. You can argue until the cows come home ... you can't argue against apathy ... you can't even locate it half the time. Another large chuck will think this kind of creeping fascism is perfectly OK. Fascism always had widespread support in countries were it took hold .. people often forget that. In places like Spain, Italy, Greece ... there are still plenty of people who will associate themselves as fascists. In fact it's growing in popularity again.

[OaklandA's]

I have already stated that I believe that the intelligence community should be able to work within a grey area. I believe they should be allowed to gather metadata within reason, and they should be made to discard all non-pertinent data immediately. Call it snooping, eavesdropping whatever. I'm not against this.

They should absolutely not be allowed to go to the source, and mine and store everyone's data in perpetuity.

Like I said before, I don't think this is happening. What we know for sure is that phone metadata is being collected.

[The Feral Slasher]

Like I said before, I don't think this is happening. What we know for sure is that phone metadata is being collected.

Do you believe you have the right to know if it is happening ?

[OaklandA's]

Do you believe you have the right to know if it is happening ?

I think there are enough people high up in the technology world who care about this, and would not permit that to happen without raising a big stink. But I'm sure the government would like criminals/terrorists to think they have that ability.

[The Feral Slasher]

for verizon only. not google, facebook, etc.

while i won't argue that that's not what the NSA *wants*, it's not what they have.

Reading this quote below, it would take a lot more than info from Verizon. Snowden has quotes that say pretty much the same thing.

http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowdens-whistleblower-binney-2013-6

Binney detailed a top-secret surveillance program called "Stellar Wind" — the scope of which had never been public — which tracked electronic activities, including phone calls, emails, banking, travel records, and social media, and then mapped them to collect "all the attributes that any individual has" in every type of activity and build a profile based on the data.

"So that now I can pull your entire life together from all those domains and map it out and show your entire life over time," Binney said in the interview.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edwar...#ixzz2W3CmXXHx

[The Feral Slasher]

I think there are enough people high up in the technology world who care about this, and would not permit that to happen without raising a big stink. But I'm sure the government would like criminals/terrorists to think they have that ability.

So do you think U.S. citizens have the right to know ?

[OaklandA's]

So do you think U.S. citizens have the right to know ?

If the government is reading everyone's e-mails and listening to every phone call, then yes, I think the people have a right to know.

[The Feral Slasher]

I think there are enough people high up in the technology world who care about this, and would not permit that to happen without raising a big stink. But I'm sure the government would like criminals/terrorists to think they have that ability.

That's an interesting thought - so do you think this affair is all theater and Snowden is just saying what the NSA wants him to say ?

[Frank]

You wouldn't have to bother. I hear Booz Allen has a recent opening.

NO NO NO NO Chance.....they are analysts and IT hacks......the field is where it's at ; )

[johnnya24]

Like I said before, I don't think this is happening. What we know for sure is that phone metadata is being collected.

I wish you were right.

[johnnya24]

NO NO NO NO Chance.....they are analysts and IT hacks......the field is where it's at ; )

Graphs can kill a lot more people than guns ...

[OaklandA's]

That's an interesting thought - so do you think this affair is all theater and Snowden is just saying what the NSA wants him to say ?

Not really. I think Snowden probably believes most of what he is saying. But he might not know what is actually implemented, and what is just on the wish list.

[johnnya24]

I think there are enough people high up in the technology world who care about this, and would not permit that to happen without raising a big stink. But I'm sure the government would like criminals/terrorists to think they have that ability.

Google are supposed to be the good guys right? That's what the PR machine tells us.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jun/12/google-tax-whistleblower-christian-beliefs

[The Feral Slasher]

Not really. I think Snowden probably believes most of what he is saying. But he might not know what is actually implemented, and what is just on the wish list.

Here is a quote from his interview

"Any analyst at any time can target anyone, any selector, anywhere. Where those communications will be picked up depends on the range of the sensor networks and the authorities that analyst is empowered with. Not all analysts have the ability to target everything. But I sitting at my desk certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a Federal judge to even the President if I had a personal e-mail."

He is pretty explicit that he himself had the capability to do a lot, so either he is outright lying, or what you discuss above doesn't seem to be consistent with his (and Binney's) comments. So do you not believe the NSA has the capabilities that Snowden and Binney claim, or am I missing some distinction or nuance ?