Verizon Customer?

[OaklandA's]

I wrote a long post about this earlier. The dropbox doesn't make a blind bit of difference in real terms. It's the raw data they want. They don't care how they get it. They don't need a legal chain of evidence for what they are using it for. So what if Google or Apple have to dump it in an intermediary space. The NSA don't care as long as they get it. The end result is the same.

The difference is that the only information that the NSA gets is what Google gives them, which is not everything.

[johnnya24]

The difference is that the only information that the NSA gets is what Google gives them, which is not everything.

But apparently Google don't know anything about this program. So we're supposed to believe that a bunch of tax-dodging liars are acting ethically? Where are you getting your information from? Not only do you seem to have inside info about Google's practices, but you are also able to vouch for quality and nature of the data they are handing over.

What would and wouldn't Google hand over, and what evidence do you have to support your claims?

[johnnya24]

i'm not living in denial. i'd just rather focus on the facts, rather than fly off in speculation in henny-penny mode. when you have something more than a powerpoint slide and your own imaginings, come back with it - i'll be all ears. until then, expect to be called on your stretches of the facts.

So accusations have been made, and no real denials have been forthcoming ... you don't think this is something that should be vehemently questioned and challenged? You don't think it's our duty as citizens of question this? Given the possible extent of this breach of the constitution and of individual civil liberties don't you think we should be all over this like a rash until they provide honest and transparent details about these practices?

Absolutely we should, because if we don't, we will never get the answers.

[The Feral Slasher]

for verizon only. not google, facebook, etc.

while i won't argue that that's not what the NSA *wants*, it's not what they have.

Is it significant if it is just verizon vs. everyone ? Isn't it still millions of Americans ? Would it make it less of an outrage ?

[OaklandA's]

So accusations have been made, and no real denials have been forthcoming.

All of the tech companies - Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc. have made very strong denials about the data collection part. What has not been denied is the Verizon MetaData collection.

[The Feral Slasher]

All of the tech companies - Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc. have made very strong denials about the data collection part. What has not been denied is the Verizon MetaData collection.

So do you beleive the denials and think that this is limited to the Verizon Metadata collection ?

[bryanbutler]

So accusations have been made, and no real denials have been forthcoming ... you don't think this is something that should be vehemently questioned and challenged? You don't think it's our duty as citizens of question this? Given the possible extent of this breach of the constitution and of individual civil liberties don't you think we should be all over this like a rash until they provide honest and transparent details about these practices?

Absolutely we should, because if we don't, we will never get the answers.

denials have come from the internet companies. you don't believe them. fine, i get that.

sure, be all over it like a rash, but don't make unsupportable claims of governmental behavior unless they can be backed up by something more substantive than a powerpoint slide. because then you run the risk of being ignored because you're a fringe lunatic who sees governmental bogies around every digital corner.

[DMT]

Is it significant if it is just verizon vs. everyone ? Isn't it still millions of Americans ? Would it make it less of an outrage ?

Bingo. The blind faith for the benevolence of our government many of you are expressing is staggering. First, why would they limit their target to Verizon business customers? Second, the Obama administration defending Clapper is as completely delusional as GWB defending Jonesy. Seriously Democrats, time to accept reality that Obama has been a complete and utter liar/failure/hypocrite vis a vis transparency, privacy, and civil liberties.

There was a good discussion on Democracy Now today between an investigative journalist and a professor at U of Chicago who gave Obama his first job.

http://www.democracynow.org/

[The Feral Slasher]

denials have come from the internet companies. you don't believe them. fine, i get that.

sure, be all over it like a rash, but don't make unsupportable claims of governmental behavior unless they can be backed up by something more substantive than a powerpoint slide. because then you run the risk of being ignored because you're a fringe lunatic who sees governmental bogies around every digital corner.

If he backs them up by more than a powerpoint slide isn't he a criminal and a traitor by the definition of the U.S. government and some posters on this board ?

[johnnya24]

Is it significant if it is just verizon vs. everyone ? Isn't it still millions of Americans ? Would it make it less of an outrage ?

Yeah, still outrageous. But we all know, if it's Verizon, it's also AT&T and T-Mobile and all the others.

It's the principle that's the key hear. These secretive instruments of government power, most of whom sat in that Appropriations committee today and announced they are united in their desires and goals, are acting in utter disdain for principles of the rule of law as set down by the Constitution. They have to operate within those boundaries, but it's clear they do not want to be restrained by these principles, and successive administrations have allowed them free reign. They simply should not be able to use means and methods that breaches these principles, even if they would be effective, even if some secretive kangaroo court orders it.

I can tolerate a certain grey area with regards the intelligence community. There has to be. But this is so far over the line its mind boggling. They want all the data, on everyone, all the time, to be used not only for current "threats", but to be able to use against people in the future ... and we are supposed to trust they will only use it ethically in our best interests (and of course they will decide what our best interests are).

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin ... wise man that.

[bryanbutler]

Is it significant if it is just verizon vs. everyone ? Isn't it still millions of Americans ? Would it make it less of an outrage ?

yes, because of the nature of the data (or metadata, if you insist). i'm not defending what happened with verizon, it's outrageous. but knowing you made a call from point X to point Y is very different than having the full conversation.

[bryanbutler]

If he backs them up by more than a powerpoint slide isn't he a criminal and a traitor by the definition of the U.S. government and some posters on this board ?

he doesn't have to have personal knowledge. a simple pointer to a substantiated claim would suffice.

[The Feral Slasher]

he doesn't have to have personal knowledge. a simple pointer to a substantiated claim would suffice.

I think both Snowden and Binney probably have quotes that would suffice. But of course they can't be substantiated because that is illegal...

[johnnya24]

All of the tech companies - Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc. have made very strong denials about the data collection part. What has not been denied is the Verizon MetaData collection.

denials have come from the internet companies. you don't believe them. fine, i get that.

sure, be all over it like a rash, but don't make unsupportable claims of governmental behavior unless they can be backed up by something more substantive than a powerpoint slide. because then you run the risk of being ignored because you're a fringe lunatic who sees governmental bogies around every digital corner.

Sorry ... should have been more specific. I was talking about official denials from the administration and the other official bodies.

The web companies have to deny. They have to deny and hope the debate will go away. They have for years now been the supposed guardians of our data and Internet freedom, and all the time they are handing over masses of indiscriminate data to the NSA (dropbox or no dropbox). And remember these are international companies ... you guys may be focusing on the issue of US data ... but Obama's administration has already publicly clarified that PRISM was designed to indiscriminately take the data of foreign nationals (how reassuring). The EU are already up in arms.

These tech giants probably make more money outside of the USA than inside, and their taxation practices outside of the USA are a f'king disgrace. Google's were hauled before the The Commons Public Accounts Committee a couple of months ago on the issue of tax avoidance and lying to parliament. The chair Margaret Hodge called Google's practices “devious, calculated and, in my view, unethical”. She went on to say, “You are a company that says you ‘do no evil’. And I think that you do do evil.” (how nice it would have been to see such frank questioning at that ridiculous committee meeting this afternoon ... that was embarrassing at times).

This issue of Global tax avoidance from these companies was scheduled to be a major issue at the upcoming G8 in Northern Ireland next week (incidently). Belfast is in full on Big Brother mode ... police everywhere. This issue has been gathering big momentum for 2 years now.

This will be the last straw for many people.

[DMT]

yes, because of the nature of the data (or metadata, if you insist). i'm not defending what happened with verizon, it's outrageous. but knowing you made a call from point X to point Y is very different than having the full conversation.

Also on today's Democracy Now, there was a mathematician and former Sun Microsystems engineer named Susan Landau who presented a compelling case that the metadata is actually more intrusive than the actual content of the conversations.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/12/more_intrusive_than_eavesdropping_nsa_collection