Originally posted by johnnya24
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Verizon Customer?
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by OaklandA's View PostThe difference is that the only information that the NSA gets is what Google gives them, which is not everything.
What would and wouldn't Google hand over, and what evidence do you have to support your claims?
Comment
-
Originally posted by bryanbutler View Posti'm not living in denial. i'd just rather focus on the facts, rather than fly off in speculation in henny-penny mode. when you have something more than a powerpoint slide and your own imaginings, come back with it - i'll be all ears. until then, expect to be called on your stretches of the facts.
Absolutely we should, because if we don't, we will never get the answers.
Comment
-
Originally posted by bryanbutler View Postfor verizon only. not google, facebook, etc.
while i won't argue that that's not what the NSA *wants*, it's not what they have.---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
---------------------------------------------
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
Comment
-
Originally posted by johnnya24 View PostSo accusations have been made, and no real denials have been forthcoming.
Comment
-
Originally posted by OaklandA's View PostAll of the tech companies - Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc. have made very strong denials about the data collection part. What has not been denied is the Verizon MetaData collection.---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
---------------------------------------------
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
Comment
-
Originally posted by johnnya24 View PostSo accusations have been made, and no real denials have been forthcoming ... you don't think this is something that should be vehemently questioned and challenged? You don't think it's our duty as citizens of question this? Given the possible extent of this breach of the constitution and of individual civil liberties don't you think we should be all over this like a rash until they provide honest and transparent details about these practices?
Absolutely we should, because if we don't, we will never get the answers.
sure, be all over it like a rash, but don't make unsupportable claims of governmental behavior unless they can be backed up by something more substantive than a powerpoint slide. because then you run the risk of being ignored because you're a fringe lunatic who sees governmental bogies around every digital corner."Instead of all of this energy and effort directed at the war to end drugs, how about a little attention to drugs which will end war?" Albert Hofmann
Comment
-
Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View PostIs it significant if it is just verizon vs. everyone ? Isn't it still millions of Americans ? Would it make it less of an outrage ?
There was a good discussion on Democracy Now today between an investigative journalist and a professor at U of Chicago who gave Obama his first job.
If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
Comment
-
Originally posted by bryanbutler View Postdenials have come from the internet companies. you don't believe them. fine, i get that.
sure, be all over it like a rash, but don't make unsupportable claims of governmental behavior unless they can be backed up by something more substantive than a powerpoint slide. because then you run the risk of being ignored because you're a fringe lunatic who sees governmental bogies around every digital corner.---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
---------------------------------------------
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
Comment
-
Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View PostIs it significant if it is just verizon vs. everyone ? Isn't it still millions of Americans ? Would it make it less of an outrage ?
It's the principle that's the key hear. These secretive instruments of government power, most of whom sat in that Appropriations committee today and announced they are united in their desires and goals, are acting in utter disdain for principles of the rule of law as set down by the Constitution. They have to operate within those boundaries, but it's clear they do not want to be restrained by these principles, and successive administrations have allowed them free reign. They simply should not be able to use means and methods that breaches these principles, even if they would be effective, even if some secretive kangaroo court orders it.
I can tolerate a certain grey area with regards the intelligence community. There has to be. But this is so far over the line its mind boggling. They want all the data, on everyone, all the time, to be used not only for current "threats", but to be able to use against people in the future ... and we are supposed to trust they will only use it ethically in our best interests (and of course they will decide what our best interests are).
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin ... wise man that.
Comment
-
Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View PostIs it significant if it is just verizon vs. everyone ? Isn't it still millions of Americans ? Would it make it less of an outrage ?"Instead of all of this energy and effort directed at the war to end drugs, how about a little attention to drugs which will end war?" Albert Hofmann
Comment
-
Originally posted by The Feral Slasher View PostIf he backs them up by more than a powerpoint slide isn't he a criminal and a traitor by the definition of the U.S. government and some posters on this board ?"Instead of all of this energy and effort directed at the war to end drugs, how about a little attention to drugs which will end war?" Albert Hofmann
Comment
-
Originally posted by bryanbutler View Posthe doesn't have to have personal knowledge. a simple pointer to a substantiated claim would suffice.---------------------------------------------
Champagne for breakfast and a Sherman in my hand !
---------------------------------------------
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
George Orwell, 1984
Comment
-
Originally posted by OaklandA's View PostAll of the tech companies - Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc. have made very strong denials about the data collection part. What has not been denied is the Verizon MetaData collection.Originally posted by bryanbutler View Postdenials have come from the internet companies. you don't believe them. fine, i get that.
sure, be all over it like a rash, but don't make unsupportable claims of governmental behavior unless they can be backed up by something more substantive than a powerpoint slide. because then you run the risk of being ignored because you're a fringe lunatic who sees governmental bogies around every digital corner.
The web companies have to deny. They have to deny and hope the debate will go away. They have for years now been the supposed guardians of our data and Internet freedom, and all the time they are handing over masses of indiscriminate data to the NSA (dropbox or no dropbox). And remember these are international companies ... you guys may be focusing on the issue of US data ... but Obama's administration has already publicly clarified that PRISM was designed to indiscriminately take the data of foreign nationals (how reassuring). The EU are already up in arms.
These tech giants probably make more money outside of the USA than inside, and their taxation practices outside of the USA are a f'king disgrace. Google's were hauled before the The Commons Public Accounts Committee a couple of months ago on the issue of tax avoidance and lying to parliament. The chair Margaret Hodge called Google's practices “devious, calculated and, in my view, unethical”. She went on to say, “You are a company that says you ‘do no evil’. And I think that you do do evil.” (how nice it would have been to see such frank questioning at that ridiculous committee meeting this afternoon ... that was embarrassing at times).
This issue of Global tax avoidance from these companies was scheduled to be a major issue at the upcoming G8 in Northern Ireland next week (incidently). Belfast is in full on Big Brother mode ... police everywhere. This issue has been gathering big momentum for 2 years now.
This will be the last straw for many people.
Comment
-
Originally posted by bryanbutler View Postyes, because of the nature of the data (or metadata, if you insist). i'm not defending what happened with verizon, it's outrageous. but knowing you made a call from point X to point Y is very different than having the full conversation.
As the American Civil Liberties Union sues the Obama administration over its secret NSA phone spying program, we look at how the government could use phone records to determine your friends, medical problems, business transactions and the places you’ve visited. While President Obama insists that nobody is listening to your telephone calls, cybersecurity expert Susan Landau says the metadata being collected by the government may be far more revealing than the content of the actual phone calls. A mathematician and former Sun Microsystems engineer, Landau is the author of the book “Surveillance or Security?: The Risks Posed by New Wiretapping Technologies.”If DMT didn't exist we would have to invent it. There has to be a weirdest thing. Once we have the concept weird, there has to be a weirdest thing. And DMT is simply it.
- Terence McKenna
Bullshit is everywhere. - George Carlin (& Jon Stewart)
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? - Satchel Paige
Comment
Comment