REM Draft Discussion Thread

[johnnya24]

I totally called "B-side or outtake" in my mind.

I should have just shut up and picked it later

[Erik]

I officially have no idea anymore

I haven't had an idea since round 3. Been checking out suggestions from a leaguemate and ranking accordingly. Most everything he's touted is gone, though, so now it'll get really random for me.

[Pogues]

I haven't had an idea since round 3. Been checking out suggestions from a leaguemate and ranking accordingly. Most everything he's touted is gone, though, so now it'll get really random for me.

I'm really getting out of control now. The song I have heard so far that I like the most that hasn't been selected I passed on this round. Why? I think it's a sleeper pick. Why would I think that? I have not a single clue, since other than the songs left from OOT and Automatic I am not familiar with. But for some reason, I believe the song I passed on no one will take, at least not until my next pick.

If I'm wrong, then I'll really want to know why the person that selected the song likes it enough to take it.

[Pogues]

Let me clarify so that you can emote properly (and this is why I phrased my initial statement this way). I don't have a problem with Kate Pierson's voice (though i completely and utterly despise the B-52s). What I hate is how her voice is woven into that song. To me, it's a design flaw rather than an issue of vocal quality.

If Mike Mills sings that part, it's a completely different song. It's a better song and probably doesn't become an overplayed pop hit of theirs.

If you still choose to be furious, that's fine. I just wanted to be clear about my statement.

It was probably Kate's doing (fault?) why Shiny, Happy People became so stinking popular in both the US and the UK. About 2 years before the US release of SHP, Loveshack was released and was insanely popular. It was everywhere, and stayed quite popular for months. The B 52s rode that wave through their next album through Good Stuff (released 1992), and sandwiched right in between was the release of OOT and your song, Shiny, Happy People.

Yeah, it's cheesy, but we are definitely on opposite sides of Kate's inclusion.

As for REM changing/experimenting/selling out...look at when they changed their sound. Sure, it was due in part to moving from I.R.S. to Warner Bros. (a bit like moving from high school to college...things are about to get more serious). Warner Bros probably wanted REM to start selling many more albums, and probably insisted on a modification to their sound...one to get them out of lowly college radio.

However, I believe the change wasn't REM, but the change in the alternative/college music scene. The music was developing, changing, becoming more...well I just don't know the technical term so I'll go with professional. It was as if they stopped using 15 year old mixing boards and second-hand instruments picked up at the pawn shop down the street.

Listen to just about any band's catalogue that ranges from the early 80s and extend into at least the mid 90s...they all changed. The Cure, U2, Talking Heads, Violent Femmes, They Might Be Giants, Siouxsie and the Banshees...REM and yes, your favorite band The B-52s. As alternative music became more mainstream (thank you REM and The One I Love) the bands had to adapt, or die. As a collective, the alternative rock scene changed their sound. I wouldn't call it experimenting, I would call it maturing.

Some bands did a poor job and adapting and died. Camper van Beethoven didn't adapt, it died. Then David Lowery went off and formed Cracker, showing a more modern view of alternative rock that Camper van never had. And so many others...Smiths anyone?

Those who were in the college music scene in the early/mid 80s probably yearned for the good old days when 1990 rolled around. I was in college in the early 90s, and if pressed I would have to admit I consider it the peak of alternative rock. Was it? Probably not, but not being around the music scene after college as I was in college, I think we are all bound to think like that.

Now Long John, I'm not saying that you are wrong in saying REM was better before the move to Warner Bros. Opinions of music are our own. But it always bothers me when I hear someone talking about selling out, which I don't think you said, but hinted at when you speak of "experimentation" which led to REM becoming much more popular than they ever would have been had they stuck with the same sound they had between 1982 and 1985.

The only band I ever referred to as a "sell out" was Reel Big Fish (incidentally Friar Fan's favorite band!), who sung a minor hit called Sell Out.

[senorsheep]

As for REM changing/experimenting/selling out...look at when they changed their sound. Sure, it was due in part to moving from I.R.S. to Warner Bros. (a bit like moving from high school to college...things are about to get more serious). Warner Bros probably wanted REM to start selling many more albums, and probably insisted on a modification to their sound...one to get them out of lowly college radio.

Aside: If I recall correctly, REM was guaranteed full creative control as a condition of signing with Warner Brothers. That was a big deal in the industry at the time - not many bands had the clout to pull that off. I'm pretty sure Out Of Time was the record the band wanted to make.

Some bands did a poor job and adapting and died. Camper van Beethoven didn't adapt, it died. Then David Lowery went off and formed Cracker, showing a more modern view of alternative rock that Camper van never had.

I just picked up tickets to see Camper Van Beethoven & Cracker at a rinky dink little club here in Denver on June 14th - w00t!

[Erik]

Funny you mention Camper/Cracker in relation to REM. My friends' band (different group of friends than the high school buddies who did REM covers) had a recording session produced by Bill Berry (which they never officially released), and another one produced by David Lowery (which became most of their second album, and landed them a few gigs opening for Cracker).

[johnnya24]

This is a brilliant combination ... great song, and one of my favourites from Murmur.

[johnnya24]

What's your REM album cover ranking?



Just noticed that Michael Stipe could be seen to be waving goodbye on the cover of Collapse.

[johnnya24]

Nothing "Dark Side of the Moon" type classic among any of their releases ... although I really like Murmur, New Adventures and Up.

The Good

Murmur
New Adventures In Hifi
Up
Reckoning
Document

The OK

Automatic
Accelerate
Green
Collapse

Borderline (like some bits ,but mostly dislike)

Fables of the Reconstruction
Reveal

The Truly Awful

Out Of Time
Life Rich Pageant
Monster
Around the Sun

----------

... just as well that what truly matters is under the cover!

[Long John]

However, I believe the change wasn't REM, but the change in the alternative/college music scene. The music was developing, changing, becoming more...well I just don't know the technical term so I'll go with professional. It was as if they stopped using 15 year old mixing boards and second-hand instruments picked up at the pawn shop down the street.

Listen to just about any band's catalogue that ranges from the early 80s and extend into at least the mid 90s...they all changed. The Cure, U2, Talking Heads, Violent Femmes, They Might Be Giants, Siouxsie and the Banshees...REM and yes, your favorite band The B-52s. As alternative music became more mainstream (thank you REM and The One I Love) the bands had to adapt, or die. As a collective, the alternative rock scene changed their sound. I wouldn't call it experimenting, I would call it maturing.

Some bands did a poor job and adapting and died. Camper van Beethoven didn't adapt, it died. Then David Lowery went off and formed Cracker, showing a more modern view of alternative rock that Camper van never had. And so many others...Smiths anyone?

Those who were in the college music scene in the early/mid 80s probably yearned for the good old days when 1990 rolled around. I was in college in the early 90s, and if pressed I would have to admit I consider it the peak of alternative rock. Was it? Probably not, but not being around the music scene after college as I was in college, I think we are all bound to think like that.

Now Long John, I'm not saying that you are wrong in saying REM was better before the move to Warner Bros. Opinions of music are our own. But it always bothers me when I hear someone talking about selling out, which I don't think you said, but hinted at when you speak of "experimentation" which led to REM becoming much more popular than they ever would have been had they stuck with the same sound they had between 1982 and 1985.

Any band that survives more than a decade will change their sound over time - you can't survive that long on one sound. Shite, even the Beatles changed over time. I don't have a problem with a band maturing for the sake of survival. When OOT came out, I honestly felt like REM had sold out to gain more popularity. That may not be true, but that was my feeling at the time. I mean, look at the first friggin' track, "Radio Song". You all want to deny that the song never existed. That it wasn't part of that record. It was the band's choice to LEAD with that song.

In hindsight, I think Automatic was even more of a sell out in that sense, but I really like Automatic and Monster as well. There are some good songs on OOT, but even with out Radio Song, I find it difficult to listen to from start to finish.

Calling it maturing is accurate and you're absolutely right about maturing or dying (Live is a great example of this). That was definitely a change in the music industry at the time and REM were one of the first to do it, hence the backlash at the time.

Think about popular music from the 70s and 80s and bands that kept consistent sounds - Journey, Huey Lewis, Def Leppard (yech!), Van Halen, etc. Bands were defined by their sound because that's all that existed. With the advent of music videos, music became more than just sound. It became a more complete sensory experience. As artists, many bands pushed the envelope on what they could create. And why not?

Heck, think about the Losing My Religion video. When it came out, it was a big deal and made the song even more popular than what it would have been if it was just played on radio.

[johnnya24]

Any band that survives more than a decade will change their sound over time - you can't survive that long on one sound. Shite, even the Beatles changed over time. I don't have a problem with a band maturing for the sake of survival. When OOT came out, I honestly felt like REM had sold out to gain more popularity. That may not be true, but that was my feeling at the time. I mean, look at the first friggin' track, "Radio Song". You all want to deny that the song never existed. That it wasn't part of that record. It was the band's choice to LEAD with that song.

In hindsight, I think Automatic was even more of a sell out in that sense, but I really like Automatic and Monster as well. There are some good songs on OOT, but even with out Radio Song, I find it difficult to listen to from start to finish.

Calling it maturing is accurate and you're absolutely right about maturing or dying (Live is a great example of this). That was definitely a change in the music industry at the time and REM were one of the first to do it, hence the backlash at the time.

Think about popular music from the 70s and 80s and bands that kept consistent sounds - Journey, Huey Lewis, Def Leppard (yech!), Van Halen, etc. Bands were defined by their sound because that's all that existed. With the advent of music videos, music became more than just sound. It became a more complete sensory experience. As artists, many bands pushed the envelope on what they could create. And why not?

Heck, think about the Losing My Religion video. When it came out, it was a big deal and made the song even more popular than what it would have been if it was just played on radio.

If OOT, Automatic, Monster and New Adverntures are "selling out", you have just rendered the term meaningless.

[Long John]

If OOT, Automatic, Monster and New Adverntures are "selling out", you have just rendered the term meaningless.

Ixnay on the eaninglessmay. On'tday antway imhay to igurefay it out.

[Long John]

@Stephen

Been waiting 3 rounds for you to take that since you not so subtly hinted at it in your pm. I had to choose between that and Turn You Inside Out. My set list was not ready for the drama of WLP.

[johnnya24]

Ixnay on the eaninglessmay. On'tday antway imhay to igurefay it out.

You overindulging on the company product again

[Stephen]

Believe it or not, that isn't the one that I hinted at in my PM. I hinted at the "other one" that will likely be my next pick if Sheep doesn't grab it.