Unions under Attack...

[chancellor]

But that is for the average private sector worker. All of the teachers have a 4-year degree, and most have a graduate degree. These benefit numbers need to compared to an equivalent private sector employee.

Not to mention comparing them on a number of work days/year basis, too.

[chancellor]

I've completely ignored this discussion because this is the same argument that the same small group has had many times over the years... But I'm curious about one thing. Is the budget deficit only being fixed through cuts in teachers salary/benefits? Or is this one of many areas that is being cut?

One of many areas being cut. If the numbers the past governor gave this administration are accurate, there's a two-year deficit of about $3.3 billion. This specific one will save between $600 million and $700 million over the two year period. There's starting discussions for significant cuts in highway spending, state health care, aid to cities/counties, and fee increases.

[senorsheep]

Seems like "% of salary contributed to benefits" should be a relevant consideration in the compensation discussion. I can tell you that not too many of Colorado's public employees, who will soon be contributing 12.5% of our salaries towards our benefits plans, are weeping for Wisconsin's public employees, who are currently contributing virtually nothing to theirs.

[PaleoMan]

According to Politifact, the average teacher in Wisconsin makes $51,000 in salary and $25,000 in benefits, for a total of $76,000. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the numbers for private industry employees is $41,000 and $17,000, for a total of $58,000. So, the "ridiculous" difference in the benefits is only $8,000.

These numbers do not, however, take into account the fact that Wisconsin teachers are much more highly educated than their counterparts in private industry. All Wisconsin teachers have a four-year degree, and 52% have Masters Degrees.

When you take into account factors such as education, public employees earn 11% less in salary than private industry employees. Even when you add benefits to the equation, the private industry employees still earn 6.8% more. Historically, teachers have earned less in salary than workers in private industry, but they have enjoyed better benefits, which helped even things out.

These are the facts, which do not square with the talking points in current circulation.

You're comparing that to the national average though, as opposed to the market conditions in Wisconsin. According to the DoL, the average salary for all private sector employees in Wisconsin is roughly $36,000 with benefits totally $13,000. I'm willing to concede that teachers on average are more accredited than your average private sector employee but (1) most work roughly 9 months a year and (2) they pay very little if any to their pension and/or health care contributions. With all this said, I can't completely blame the teacher unions for all the state's budget ills largely because they are maximizing the loopholes in the system and exploiting the ignorance of the public. Local politicians and town boards knowingly backload benefits for these public sector unions since hysteria usually ensue over more highly visible compensation like salary. This "kicking the can down the road" accounting measure is the main source for the budgeting problems we're seeing.

[B-Fly]

Seems like "% of salary contributed to benefits" should be a relevant consideration in the compensation discussion. I can tell you that not too many of Colorado's public employees, who will soon be contributing 12.5% of our salaries towards our benefits plans, are weeping for Wisconsin's public employees, who are currently contributing virtually nothing to theirs.

Yes, if the salaries themselves didn't already intrinsically differentiate for that disparity.

But in any event, I believe the public employee unions in Wisconsin indicated that they were perfectly willing to make concessions to that end. They indicated a willingness to concede on pretty much everything - at the bargaining table. The fight in Madison now is over the proposed steep and significant dilution of their rights to collectively bargain going forward.

[OaklandA's]

I've completely ignored this discussion because this is the same argument that the same small group has had many times over the years... But I'm curious about one thing. Is the budget deficit only being fixed through cuts in teachers salary/benefits? Or is this one of many areas that is being cut?

The unions have already agreed to all of the cuts specified by the Governor. The dispute now is over the collective bargaining rights - the Governor wants to take away the rights of some unions to collectively bargain for anything other than wages.

[senorsheep]

Yes, if the salaries themselves didn't already intrinsically differentiate for that disparity.

Just amused by what people will consider and what they will dismiss when advancing their pre-conceived viewpoints. Carry on.

[B-Fly]

Just amused by what people will consider and what they will dismiss when advancing their pre-conceived viewpoints. Carry on.

What did I dismiss? In any event, I'm management. Union folks don't generally like where I tend to come out on most specific issues.

[PaleoMan]

The unions have already agreed to all of the cuts specified by the Governor. The dispute now is over the collective bargaining rights - the Governor wants to take away the rights of some unions to collectively bargain for anything other than wages.

If I was governor, I'd simply let the normal CBA process continue unabated and let the districts make their necessary cuts. I didn't like the manner in which the governor thrust himself into this situation. Yes, he's trying to provide bold leadership, but with situations like these, palatable solutions aren't normally found until POST-crisis.

[Lurker765]

The benefits package is worth $25K for the teachers, and $17K for the private sector. So the difference in benefits is only $8K.

I don't think that "only" $8k in this example helps his point. 76K vs 58K makes things appear closer. 25 vs 17 makes the benefits difference huge.

[frae]

(1) most work roughly 9 months a year and

Just wanted to point out that I don't know anyone that works roughly 9 months anymore. I go back for in service in August, this coming year the proposal is August 22nd for a week of inservice. Our last in service day for this current year will be Monday June 20th. By my math that means we are off for 8 weeks not 12 weeks. I don't know anyone here in western PA that is working on a schedule that is not pretty much the same as this and every time someone complains about teachers they use this 9 month year. The problem is they forget that we have 14 inservice days a year with a 4 of them to open the year and 3 to close the year.

[frae]

What did I dismiss? In any event, I'm management. Union folks don't generally like where I tend to come out on most specific issues.

Yep it has taken a lot of years on RJ for me to finally find an issue where I disagree with you B

[PaleoMan]

The Koch brothers are taking heat for being the nefarious puppetmasters in the Wisconsin labor situation, when they simply don't fit the mold of domineering tycoons in smoke-filled rooms. Forget about the 20 million they gave to the ACLU to fight the Bush Administration on the Patriot Act:

http://reason.com/blog/2011/02/24/evil-koch-bros-support

The KOCH brothers must be stopped. They gave $40K to Scott Walker, the MAX allowed by state law. That's small potatoes compared to the $100+ million they give to other organizations. These organizations will terrify you. If the anti-union thing weren't enough, here are bigger and better reasons to stop the evil Kochs. They are trying to:

1. decriminalize drugs,
2. legalize gay marriage,
3. repeal the Patriot Act,
4. end the police state,
5. cut defense spending.

Who hates the police? Only the criminals using drugs, amirite? We need the Patriot Act to allow government to go through our emails and tap our phones to catch people who smoke marijuana and put them in prison. Oh, it's also good for terrorists.

Wikipedia shows Koch Family Foundations supporting causes like:

1. CATO Institute
2. Reason Foundation
3. cancer research
4. ballet (because seriously: F__K. THAT. S__T.) ...

[OaklandA's]

The Koch brothers are taking heat for being the nefarious puppetmasters in the Wisconsin labor situation, when they simply don't fit the mold of domineering tycoons in smoke-filled rooms. Forget about the 20 million they gave to the ACLU to fight the Bush Administration on the Patriot Act:

Great, now we've got someone here who quotes as fact things taken from a blog that is quoting an anonymous poster named epistemicfail on reddit.

[Judge Jude]

interesting column on NJ Gov. Christie and a comparison of he and Walker in WI that won't please either side completely.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/political_stile/116900863_Christie_s__goal_is_to__shred_state__unions.html

"Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker wants to weaken unions' power to bargain on behalf of government workers. Governor Christie says he's no Scott Walker, and he's right. Christie has no intention of stripping away labor's collective bargaining rights — he just ignores them."....

"if the unions are unhappy with Christie's approach, they are partly to blame. He didn't simply cook this strategy in the back room of some right-wing think tank. He learned it from watching the unions, who bypassed the bargaining table to thwart past governors' efforts at squeezing unions for savings. .... Unions did not collectively bargain the now-infamous 9 percent increase in pension payouts, which Christie now wants to eliminate. It was a giveaway by a Republican-controlled Legislature trying to curry favor with labor in a gubernatorial election year."