Pizza

[The Dane]

hmmmm, I wonder how you Bay area folks feel about Niagara wines ...

I don't know anything about wine, other than that a hearty glass of red puts me to sleep when I'm sick. But, I would have to say that Napa Valley wine snobs are a close second in pretentiousness and self-grandeur to NY pizza snobs.

[BuckyBuckner]

NO ONE outside of the NE knows how to make a freaking pizza!!!!!

We finally agree on something.

[The Dane]

You're entitled to your opinion, Dane. Why not express it over a nice ketchup on Wonderbread and rubbery cheese slice?

I like New York pizza just fine. The last time I was there, I visited the top three places (and several others) that were on the list generated here on RJ. They were all very good. But, I've had good pizza at other places, some in California, some not. People get too propped up on their own regional nuances and miss the bigger picture. (This goes for Napa Valley wine makers too.) I'm not defending Dominoes, Pizza Hut, Round Table or any other big national chain. That isn't "real" pizza as far as I'm concerned. But, I would contend, with what I believe to be an open mind and heart and palate, that there are countless mom and pop pizza places all over the country that are every bit as good as any famous NY pizza place.

[Mithrandir]

The truth is an absolute defense.

Are there artisinal pizzas worth eating outside of the NE? Sure, but they have as much to do with actual Neapolitan or Sicilian pizza as a good tuna salad has to do with extraordinary sushi-- they aren't really comparable 1:1. Are there some good "real" pizzas outside of the NE Corridor? Sure-- in places where someone from that area has set up a pizzeria and stuck to the right way of doing things, as has happened in my neighborhood where a guy from Queens opened a good pizzeria in Alexandria.

The bottom line is that if you grew up in Podunk, PA you think that the Pizza Hut inspired pizza you've been eating since you were three is good pizza. That's fine, glad you enjoy it.

All this post says to me is ..."blah blah blah blah blah..look at me i'm self-important..." in other words a typical post from Bob.

There are some very good pizza shops (not chains) where i live, each offers a bit of difference in the way they make their sauce, type of crust, etc. and some are pretty damn good!! maybe they are displaced NY'ers!!
'ers!!

[heyelander]

I'm not much of a NE pizza snob, but I will say that no one else in the country/world knows how to make a cheesesteak.

[Mithrandir]

I'm not much of a NE pizza snob, but I will say that no one else in the country/world knows how to make a cheesesteak.

You mean make a cheesesteak like they make in Philly....because, you know, they are the best..oh wait, maybe they aren't the best...

[Mithrandir]

The truth is an absolute defense.

Are there artisinal pizzas worth eating outside of the NE? Sure, but they have as much to do with actual Neapolitan or Sicilian pizza as a good tuna salad has to do with extraordinary sushi-- they aren't really comparable 1:1. Are there some good "real" pizzas outside of the NE Corridor? Sure-- in places where someone from that area has set up a pizzeria and stuck to the right way of doing things, as has happened in my neighborhood where a guy from Queens opened a good pizzeria in Alexandria.

The bottom line is that if you grew up in Podunk, PA you think that the Pizza Hut inspired pizza you've been eating since you were three is good pizza. That's fine, glad you enjoy it.

[heyelander]

You mean make a cheesesteak like they make in Philly....because, you know, they are the best..oh wait, maybe they aren't the best...

they may taste just fine, or even better in your misguided opinion... but they aren't cheesesteaks.

[The Dane]

they may taste just fine, or even better in your misguided opinion... but they aren't cheesesteaks.

So, if I put thinly-sliced steak and melted cheese on a long roll and call it a "cheesesteak" and my fellow Californians think it's yummy, it's NOT really a cheesesteak?

You see, it's this ridiculous regional bias that makes us all look like idiotic snobs at one time or another.

[Gregg]

What's your favorite deep dish joint? I go back and forth b/w Lou Malnati's and Edwardo's.

Weird, I answered this one and it isn't here. Maybe I spaced on the hit reply button.

I lean towards Lou's if I am going for deep dish. Uno's and Gino's East are very good too. I haven't had Edwardo's in years, but I remember it being very good.

If you like thin crust, it is worth the drive to go to Waukegan (on Grand Ave.) to have a Quonset Hut Pizza. They have been around since 1946. Lots of great choices but I still haven't found one better than this.

[TranaGreg]

So, if I put thinly-sliced steak and melted cheese on a long roll and call it a "cheesesteak" and my fellow Californians think it's yummy, it's NOT really a cheesesteak?

You see, it's this ridiculous regional bias that makes us all look like idiotic snobs at one time or another.

I blame the french with their "champagne can only come from champagne" ... or maybe it was the scots with their "scotch can only come from Scottish peat" ... or ... ah, nevermind, it's still the Yankee's fault.

[Bob Kohm]

I like New York pizza just fine. The last time I was there, I visited the top three places (and several others) that were on the list generated here on RJ. They were all very good. But, I've had good pizza at other places, some in California, some not. People get too propped up on their own regional nuances and miss the bigger picture. (This goes for Napa Valley wine makers too.) I'm not defending Dominoes, Pizza Hut, Round Table or any other big national chain. That isn't "real" pizza as far as I'm concerned. But, I would contend, with what I believe to be an open mind and heart and palate, that there are countless mom and pop pizza places all over the country that are every bit as good as any famous NY pizza place.

See, this isn't a "regional nuance" question but rather one of authenticity. Pizza as we know it in America was created by Napolitano an Sicilian immigrants in New York in the nineteenth century-- and if you want a pizza snob ask a pizzaiolo from Naples what he thinks of NY pizza-- they make me look admiring of Indiana pizza. "New York" pizza is our pizza-- it's the way it was made and continues to be made, with the right style crust, real sauce, etc. It also happens to taste better than the crap I've had in most spots all over the country and the better attempts I've had in a few. I understand that people think that what they have is good because it's what they're used to-- creative toppings on flaccid whole wheat (what, no ground quinoa?) crusts in California, crusts thick enough to comfortably sleep on in Chicago, cracker crisp crusts in swaths of the Midwest and Connecticut, etc. Add to that the influence on "Mom and Pop" pizzerias by what people around the country have been told they want-- Buffalo Chicken or Hawaiian pizzas from Pizza Hut or Dominos-- and it's a mess.

Pizza is a simple thing-- good, fresh dough crisped on the bottom by an insanely hot oven but with the flexibility and structure to be picked up and folded; tomato sauce that isn't insanely overblasted with oregano (because "Thats-a Italiano" in the thinking of Joe Higgins from Omaha...) nor watery bland (a la Sysco); mozzarella (not "4 cheese blend", not "6 Italian cheeses" (no, colby is not an "Italian cheese"), not (god help us...) Wisconsin cheddar, etc). Bake it above 750` until the crust sets and the cheese bubbles.

You're surely entitled to your beliefs-- some people believe the earth is flat-- but to say there are "...countless mom and pop pizza places all over the country that are every bit as good as any famous NY pizza place" is as silly as it is unsupportable. I hear they make a great cioppino in Tulsa

[Gregg]

I love pizza. It is fun to rattle sabers and have good natured debates. The truth is I really do not care where the best pizza is made so long as I get some. If I found the best pizza for my palate in the deep south I would be posting about it here.

People in Chicago or close to it have our own debate as to what is the best pizza. I am sure NY is the same. The only thing I get out of the debate are good leads.

The true Sicilian pizza that I have seen only on television looks like it would be too dry and simple to make it my favorite. That is not to say that I wouldn't enjoy it, but I doubt it breaks into my top ten list.

[Gregg]

See, this isn't a "regional nuance" question but rather one of authenticity. Pizza as we know it in America was created by Napolitano an Sicilian immigrants in New York in the nineteenth century-- and if you want a pizza snob ask a pizzaiolo from Naples what he thinks of NY pizza-- they make me look admiring of Indiana pizza. "New York" pizza is our pizza-- it's the way it was made and continues to be made, with the right style crust, real sauce, etc. It also happens to taste better than the crap I've had in most spots all over the country and the better attempts I've had in a few. I understand that people think that what they have is good because it's what they're used to-- creative toppings on flaccid whole wheat (what, no ground quinoa?) crusts in California, crusts thick enough to comfortably sleep on in Chicago, cracker crisp crusts in swaths of the Midwest and Connecticut, etc. Add to that the influence on "Mom and Pop" pizzerias by what people around the country have been told they want-- Buffalo Chicken or Hawaiian pizzas from Pizza Hut or Dominos-- and it's a mess.

Pizza is a simple thing-- good, fresh dough crisped on the bottom by an insanely hot oven but with the flexibility and structure to be picked up and folded; tomato sauce that isn't insanely overblasted with oregano (because "Thats-a Italiano" in the thinking of Joe Higgins from Omaha...) nor watery bland (a la Sysco); mozzarella (not "4 cheese blend", not "6 Italian cheeses" (no, colby is not an "Italian cheese"), not (god help us...) Wisconsin cheddar, etc). Bake it above 750` until the crust sets and the cheese bubbles.

You're surely entitled to your beliefs-- some people believe the earth is flat-- but to say there are "...countless mom and pop pizza places all over the country that are every bit as good as any famous NY pizza place" is as silly as it is unsupportable. I hear they make a great cioppino in Tulsa

I agree the base is in the sauce and that good mozz is a must. But if you aren't putting at least one meat on it, you are wasting the pizza crust that you so admire. Sometime less is...well just less.

[heyelander]

So, if I put thinly-sliced steak and melted cheese on a long roll and call it a "cheesesteak" and my fellow Californians think it's yummy, it's NOT really a cheesesteak?

You see, it's this ridiculous regional bias that makes us all look like idiotic snobs at one time or another.

So I see Bob is taking this conversation one direction. I'm going the other. Why the hell do any of you give a crap about what we think?