The GOPs Best Hope in 2012

[Wonderboy]

Interesting NY Times poll - Americans all over the map here (which I kind of like):

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/us...l.html?_r=1&hp

Do you know what? My faith in the American voter is almost -- almost -- restored by that poll and the comments. Time after time I found myself agreeing with what the poll said, especially, believe it or not, the beliefs of many Republicans. More specifically:

More than four out of five people surveyed said that the recent debt-ceiling debate was more about gaining political advantage than about doing what is best for the country.

Republicans in Congress shoulder more of the blame for the difficulties in reaching a debt-ceiling agreement than President Obama and the Democrats, the poll found.

The Republicans compromised too little, a majority of those polled said.

The public’s opinion of the Tea Party movement has soured in the wake of the debt-ceiling debate. The Tea Party is now viewed unfavorably by 40 percent of the public and favorably by just 20 percent, according to the poll.

(B)y a ratio of more than two to one, Americans said that creating jobs should be a higher priority than spending cuts.

Sixty-three percent of those polled said that they supported raising taxes on households that earn more than $250,000 a year, as Mr. Obama has sought to do — including majorities of Democrats (80 percent), independents (61 percent) and Republicans (52 percent).

The president’s overall job approval rating remained relatively stable, with 48 percent approving of the way he handles his job as president and 47 percent disapproving — down from the bump up he received in the spring after the killing of Osama bin Laden, but in line with how he has been viewed for nearly a year. By contrast, Speaker John A. Boehner, an Ohio Republican, saw his disapproval rating shoot up 16 points since April: 57 percent of those polled now disapprove of the way he is handling his job, while only 30 percent approve.

Americans said that they trusted Mr. Obama to make the right decisions about the economy more than the Republicans in Congress, by 47 percent to 33 percent.

And they were still more likely to blame President George W. Bush for the bulk of the nation’s deficit: 44 percent said that the deficit was mostly caused by the Bush administration, 15 percent said it was mostly caused by the Obama administration and 15 percent blamed Congress.

“Cutting spending is important, but getting people back to work is more important,” said Diane Sherrell, 56, a Republican from Erwin, N.C.

Stanley Oland, 62, a Republican from Kalispell, Mont., said that the government needed new jobs to generate the economic activity and the revenue it requires...“Unless you have working people you don’t have revenue from taxes. If you cut spending, jobs will be eliminated and you won’t get any revenue. Every dollar spent creates jobs.”

The most interesting thing I see from that article is the possible return of the moderate Republican. Even they seem fed up with their leaders and the tea party. I actually have a little hope for our country after reading this.

[onejayhawk]

What if four out of five people are wrong? What if the real motive was exactly what they said it was?

The questions are somewhat rhetorical. However, I am convinced that most of the Tea Party element feels exactly as they are saying. Their lack of political accumen is evident, so a fabrication would be obvious. It is very frustrating to be telling the truth, as best as you are able, and to get this kind of response. Frustrated people will do some odd things.

In any event, I have the opposite reaction. It reinforces my belief in the cynicism of the American People with regards to their Congress.

J

[Mithrandir]

What if four out of five people are wrong? What if the real motive was exactly what they said it was?
The questions are somewhat rhetorical. However, I am convinced that most of the Tea Party element feels exactly as they are saying. Their lack of political accumen is evident, so a fabrication would be obvious. It is very frustrating to be telling the truth, as best as you are able, and to get this kind of response. Frustrated people will do some odd things.

In any event, I have the opposite reaction. It reinforces my belief in the cynicism of the American People with regards to their Congress.

J

If you are saying that you believe the real motive behind the debt ceiling debate was to do what's best for the country you're nuts.

[cardboardbox]

If you are saying that you believe the real motive behind the debt ceiling debate was to do what's best for the country you're nuts.

Obama's number one goal in the negotiations was to raise the debt ceiling high enough so that he wouldnt have to revisit this discussion before Nov 2012 and that is the one point I would never have given up if I were on the other side of the table trying to do whats best for this country. We should have this debt discussion once a year and particularly before every election.

[Lucky]

That poll makes me curious about the tea party. Only 20% view it favorably. Ostensibly, 100% of the people who are tea partiers favor their own movement. Thus, that would put the highest percentage of tea party membership at 20%. But what are the odds that everyone who favored the tea party is actually a tea partier? If you assume half, a generous assumption, that would leave you with 10% actual tea partiers.

So, you've either got a group favored by nobody but them selves, or you have a group that consists of far fewer than 20% of the population. Either way, it doesn't sound as though the tea party is as wide or deep as its members and the pundits claim.

[DMT]

That poll makes me curious about the tea party. Only 20% view it favorably. Ostensibly, 100% of the people who are tea partiers favor their own movement. Thus, that would put the highest percentage of tea party membership at 20%. But what are the odds that everyone who favored the tea party is actually a tea partier? If you assume half, a generous assumption, that would leave you with 10% actual tea partiers.

So, you've either got a group favored by nobody but them selves, or you have a group that consists of far fewer than 20% of the population. Either way, it doesn't sound as though the tea party is as wide or deep as its members and the pundits claim.

Fox News has basically created the Tea Party and their constant coverage generates the perception that they are much larger then they are. And they're rabid (i.e., easily manipulated) so their activism also gives them greater power then they should have based on numbers alone.

[onejayhawk]

If you are saying that you believe the real motive behind the debt ceiling debate was to do what's best for the country you're nuts.

I am saying that that is exactly what the people pushing the debate believe. They can even make a solid factual case for their motivations. Tactics, meh...

J

[Judge Jude]

"And they're rabid (i.e., easily manipulated) so their activism also gives them greater power then they should have based on numbers alone."

Well, the NY Times poll found that overall, Tea Party supporters are more educated than average. Sure, smart people can be manipulated, too, but you may be discussing a stereotype here.

Not that I am a Tea Party supporter, btw.

ok, here's the poll story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html?adxnnl=1&ref=teapartymovement&adxnnlx=1312593146-3QgpQTFWhujGK2VWm78u9w

"Their responses are like the general public’s in many ways. Most describe the amount they paid in taxes this year as “fair.” Most send their children to public schools. A plurality do not think Sarah Palin is qualified to be president, and, despite their push for smaller government, they think that Social Security and Medicare are worth the cost to taxpayers."

the quotes in the story are comical - it's as if somebody on the desk said, "C'mon, this doesn't look right. Find me some Tea Party yahoos out there."
and they did.

[chancellor]

"And they're rabid (i.e., easily manipulated) so their activism also gives them greater power then they should have based on numbers alone."

Well, the NY Times poll found that overall, Tea Party supporters are more educated than average. Sure, smart people can be manipulated, too, but you may be discussing a stereotype here.

Shoot, Jude, don't bother with the facts. I mean, why would you bother showing up bigotry in its ugliest form? Shoot, we all know Tea Party supporters are obviously all ignorant fools manipulated by the mind rays of Fox and Dick Cheney.

[DMT]

Shoot, Jude, don't bother with the facts. I mean, why would you bother showing up bigotry in its ugliest form? Shoot, we all know Tea Party supporters are obviously all ignorant fools manipulated by the mind rays of Fox and Dick Cheney.

Oh geez, lighten up Francis. I was actually giving them credit for being active and making their influence greater than what it would be just on shear numbers. I have no problem with 3rd parties and I hope they stick to their principles and punish the Republican party for not getting enough. Maybe it would give courage to all those liberals out there who continue to be duped by the Democratic party to finally break away and start their own party. Of course, they won't have a corporate media behemoth to promote their cause, but you're right Chance, Fox and the Tea Party are completely separate entities.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Oh geez, lighten up Francis. I was actually giving them credit for being active and making their influence greater than what it would be just on shear numbers. I have no problem with 3rd parties and I hope they stick to their principles and punish the Republican party for not getting enough. Maybe it would give courage to all those liberals out there who continue to be duped by the Democratic party to finally break away and start their own party. Of course, they won't have a corporate media behemoth to promote their cause, but you're right Chance, Fox and the Tea Party are completely separate entities.

Who knows? Murdoch might have a change of heart in prison and start backing the far left. Especially on policies like Gay Marriage and such.

[Wonderboy]

Shoot, we all know Tea Party supporters are obviously all ignorant fools manipulated by the mind rays of Fox and Dick Cheney.

I think it would be unfair to say that the Tea Party is a complete subsidiary of Fox; likewise, I think it would be unfair to say there isn't a huge crossover influence between the two. I don't think Fox fabricated the Tea Party movement, but there is clearly a big conection there.

[senorsheep]

I think it would be unfair to say that the Tea Party is a complete subsidiary of Fox; likewise, I think it would be unfair to say there isn't a huge crossover influence between the two. I don't think Fox fabricated the Tea Party movement, but there is clearly a big conection there.

So, Fox focuses attention on a minor political activist group because that group's cause is of interest to their broader audience, and dovetails with their own political agenda, and that's somehow more nefarious than MSNBC and other left-leaning media outlets overplaying the story of Cindy Sheehan because her cause was of interest to their broader audiences, and dovetailed with their own political agendas?

There isn't a lick of difference, aside from the fact that then, The Good Guys were doing for A Just Cause, and now, it's The Bad Guys doing it for, uh, I don't know, whatever sinister purpose the DNC and its media organs are claiming is being advanced. Strike and reverse those labels if you count yourself with the other political tribe.

And so, The Left wails and moans about the manipulation of those poor right-wing fools by their political media puppetmasters now, just as the true believers on The Right wailed and moaned about the manipulation of those poor left-wing fools by their political media puppetmasters then. And round and round and round it goes.

Given the impressive efforts made in defining and demonizing The Tea Party, Rand Paul, etc., it does cause one to wonder if they make The DNC a little more nervous than they care to admit.

[GwynnInTheHall]

So, Fox focuses attention on a minor political activist group because that group's cause is of interest to their broader audience, and dovetails with their own political agenda, and that's somehow more nefarious than MSNBC and other left-leaning media outlets overplaying the story of Cindy Sheehan because her cause was of interest to their broader audiences, and dovetailed with their own political agendas?

There isn't a lick of difference, aside from the fact that then, The Good Guys were doing for A Just Cause, and now, it's The Bad Guys doing it for, uh, I don't know, whatever sinister purpose the DNC and its media organs are claiming is being advanced. Strike and reverse those labels if you count yourself with the other political tribe.

And so, The Left wails and moans about the manipulation of those poor right-wing fools by their political media puppetmasters now, just as the true believers on The Right wailed and moaned about the manipulation of those poor left-wing fools by their political media puppetmasters then. And round and round and round it goes.

Given the impressive efforts made in defining and demonizing The Tea Party, Rand Paul, etc., it does cause one to wonder if they make The DNC a little more nervous than they care to admit.

I don't see how one person's campaign to end the war in Iraq is at all similar to a group's (numbering in the hundreds of thousands if not millions), effort to limit (some want it ended) Govt and stop all (or most) social programs, blur the separation of church and state, change the Constitution among other issues they work to advance, are similar at all.

Can you tell my why, in your opinion, these two are in anyway equal in their impact on the country and in the coverage they've received (are receiving)?

Thanks

[onejayhawk]

Oh geez, lighten up Francis. I was actually giving them credit for being active and making their influence greater than what it would be just on shear numbers. I have no problem with 3rd parties and I hope they stick to their principles and punish the Republican party for not getting enough. Maybe it would give courage to all those liberals out there who continue to be duped by the Democratic party to finally break away and start their own party. Of course, they won't have a corporate media behemoth to promote their cause, but you're right Chance, Fox and the Tea Party are completely separate entities.

If that was your intent, you have the wrong group. their influence minor compared to their numbers. Compare, for example, the NRA or NAACP, which have huge clout compared to their numbers. If your response is that the NAACP represents 1/6 of the population, my point stands unapposed.

So, Fox focuses attention on a minor political activist group because that group's cause is of interest to their broader audience, and dovetails with their own political agenda, and that's somehow more nefarious than MSNBC and other left-leaning media outlets overplaying the story of Cindy Sheehan because her cause was of interest to their broader audiences, and dovetailed with their own political agendas?

There isn't a lick of difference, aside from the fact that then, The Good Guys were doing for A Just Cause, and now, it's The Bad Guys doing it for, uh, I don't know, whatever sinister purpose the DNC and its media organs are claiming is being advanced. Strike and reverse those labels if you count yourself with the other political tribe.

And so, The Left wails and moans about the manipulation of those poor right-wing fools by their political media puppetmasters now, just as the true believers on The Right wailed and moaned about the manipulation of those poor left-wing fools by their political media puppetmasters then. And round and round and round it goes.

Given the impressive efforts made in defining and demonizing The Tea Party, Rand Paul, etc., it does cause one to wonder if they make The DNC a little more nervous than they care to admit.

I have an issue with "minor political activist group ", but much of the rest of this is valid.

I don't see how one person's campaign to end the war in Iraq is at all similar to a group's (numbering in the hundreds of thousands if not millions), effort to limit (some want it ended) Govt and stop all (or most) social programs, blur the separation of church and state, change the Constitution among other issues they work to advance, are similar at all.

Can you tell my why, in your opinion, these two are in anyway equal in their impact on the country and in the coverage they've received (are receiving)?

Thanks

You make a vaild point. The Tea Party deserves much more coverage than they are getting.

Except for Murdoch's outlets, they are still being treated as small and fringe, when neither is remotely true. The reason Fox does so well with them is because they resonate with center right as well as the right. This is the most significant movement since the opposition to Viet Nam in the 1960s. Yet, some people still claim Fox created tthe Tea Party, which is akin to saying Ralph nader created the "Greens".

J