Lance Armstrong is a fraud...

[Bob Kohm]

Everyone disbelieved Jose Canseco for the longest time. When one guy (Landis), came out and told stories of what he had seen, you could maybe argue that he was just in it for self-aggrandizement, money, or to justify his own misdeeds. But now that two other prominent former teammates have said the same under oath, it's awfully hard to chalk it all up to impure motives and fantasy on the part of the accusers.

The difference is that Hincappie, Landis and Hamilton haven't really had the opportunity to cash in on their careers whereas Armstrong has made a fortune. Lemond's ass is still chapped because he is largely unremarked and unremembered by most Americans whereas Armstrong is a household name. After years and years of the Euros making allegations and doing everything they could to catch Armstrong with a testing program run very differently than the ones that baseball players live and lived under, they had zilch. Jealousy and profit are two powerful motivators.

[amcg]

I'm sure Carl Lewis was absolutely clean as well...

[B-Fly]

I'm sure Carl Lewis was absolutely clean as well...

Well I'm pretty sure the dude wasn't taking any testosterone.

[onejayhawk]

I would say there was lots of smoke but no fire up until the day Floyd Landis accused him. Prior to that their had been a lot of rumors and associations with shady doctors, but no one testifying they had seen anything. Now three very prominent American cyclists have spilled the beans on him: Landis, Hamilton, and Hincapie. Whether it will be enough to get the Feds what they want, I don't know, but Lance has to feel the flames lapping around his feet at this point.

I still say BS. Armstrong got one of a kind scrutiny. From the time he reentered the sport after his cancer therapy, people have been wanting to know how he resculpted. The easy assumption was PEDs, but the tests, and there were a LOT, showed nada. 15 years later, we get another guy saying, "I dont see how he did it without using...", and we get huge headlines. As Hornsby said, CBS cutting corners and going for the cheap shot in a sweeps month.

J

[OaklandA's]

15 years later, we get another guy saying, "I dont see how he did it without using...", and we get huge headlines. As Hornsby said, CBS cutting corners and going for the cheap shot in a sweeps month.

They didn't say "I dont see how he did it without using...". They said "We were teammates, and we all used together, under the supervision of our team doctors." Not exactly the same thing.

[Hornsby]

I still say BS. Armstrong got one of a kind scrutiny. From the time he reentered the sport after his cancer therapy, people have been wanting to know how he resculpted. The easy assumption was PEDs, but the tests, and there were a LOT, showed nada. 15 years later, we get another guy saying, "I dont see how he did it without using...", and we get huge headlines. As Hornsby said, CBS cutting corners and going for the cheap shot in a sweeps month.

J

Except I meant it sarcasticly...there are many more targets out there that would garner better ratings if that's all 60 Minutes was up to.

And he did fail tests...he was supposedly was caught with elevated levels of testosterone 3 differerent times, as well as being caught by Swiss customs with drugs.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/more/01/18/lance.armstrong/index.html?eref=sihp

[chancellor]

And he did fail tests...he was supposedly was caught with elevated levels of testosterone 3 differerent times, as well as being caught by Swiss customs with drugs.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...html?eref=sihp

SI is categorically incorrect here. In fact, I can't even imagine who edited that article, other than someone who doesn't know squat about "failing" tests.

Failure of a net testosterone test or an epi:testo ratio would have been an auto two-year suspension, no questions asked, even in the doping society of the mid to late '90s. At that time, it was virtually impossible to detect EPO, other than by the most idiotic user, and even difficult to pick up Clen, but steroid tests were pretty solid in the aerobic sports dating back to the early '90s. You could cycle your way past them, but if you failed, you were toast. EPO and HGH were two totally different animals - properly, or even close to properly used in the mid to late 90s and even early '00s, it was virtually undetectable.

To an earlier point, yeah, Bonds and McGwire were never caught, but baseball's testing was nearly non-existent, and even today, is an absolute joke compared to the level of testing cyclists went through even 10 years ago (much less today). Marion Jones was never caught, but cyclists - strangely enough, as they are typically at the cutting edge of doping technology - were not into the cream/clear combination.

IMO, for those who are Tour fans, I said back when it happened, and I didn't realize how true it would turn out, but I knew Lance would regret - deeply regret - the one day his team helped run Hincapie down from his likely last opportunity to win a race and wear yellow in 2009. While Garmin was given much of the blame, Astana - Armstrong's team at the time - was also out front narrowing the lead for a significant part of the time.

[onejayhawk]

Except I meant it sarcasticly...there are many more targets out there that would garner better ratings if that's all 60 Minutes was up to.

And he did fail tests...he was supposedly was caught with elevated levels of testosterone 3 differerent times, as well as being caught by Swiss customs with drugs.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...html?eref=sihp

Unintentional truth, but truth.

As to the rest, chancellor might be willing to mail you the confetti he made of it.

J

[chancellor]

IMO, it'll be most interesting when Hincapie's full testimony comes out, as it eventually will. He's refused comment to the media so far, other than his circular denial that he said anything to CBS or 60 Minutes. Bob Kohm made good points earlier about Landis and Hamilton; yeah, it's possible they're not lying, but given that Landis lied for three years and Hamilton for six years after getting caught in testing, it's pretty difficult to give them much credence. But Hincapie's a different creature - he's never been caught doping, he's got a fair amount of money put away (not Lance money, but still a lot), and Lance can and will get every door slammed in Hincapie's face in cycling if he did squeal. So, it's not like Hincapie's doing this to make money; in fact, he'll probably lose a lot of opportunity.

[Hornsby]

SI is categorically incorrect here. In fact, I can't even imagine who edited that article, other than someone who doesn't know squat about "failing" tests.

Failure of a net testosterone test or an epi:testo ratio would have been an auto two-year suspension, no questions asked, even in the doping society of the mid to late '90s. At that time, it was virtually impossible to detect EPO, other than by the most idiotic user, and even difficult to pick up Clen, but steroid tests were pretty solid in the aerobic sports dating back to the early '90s. You could cycle your way past them, but if you failed, you were toast. EPO and HGH were two totally different animals - properly, or even close to properly used in the mid to late 90s and even early '00s, it was virtually undetectable.

To an earlier point, yeah, Bonds and McGwire were never caught, but baseball's testing was nearly non-existent, and even today, is an absolute joke compared to the level of testing cyclists went through even 10 years ago (much less today). Marion Jones was never caught, but cyclists - strangely enough, as they are typically at the cutting edge of doping technology - were not into the cream/clear combination.

IMO, for those who are Tour fans, I said back when it happened, and I didn't realize how true it would turn out, but I knew Lance would regret - deeply regret - the one day his team helped run Hincapie down from his likely last opportunity to win a race and wear yellow in 2009. While Garmin was given much of the blame, Astana - Armstrong's team at the time - was also out front narrowing the lead for a significant part of the time.

In the wake of mounting evidence, hanging your case on bitter ex teammates is very weak. Go ahead and Google Armstrong and doping...there have been allegations and accusations for more than a decade, the majority of them from credible witnesses.

BTW, how do you explain these wildly astronomic numbers on the tests?

"a 9.0-to-1 ratio from a sample collected on June 23, 1993; a 7.6-to-1 from July 7, 1994; and a 6.5-to-1 from June 4, 1996. Most people have a ratio of 1-to-1. Prior to 2005, any ratio above 6.0-to-1 was considered abnormally high and evidence of doping; in 2005 that ratio was lowered to 4.0-to-1."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1NEzhMjgP

If you tried to explain it in your post, I failed to understand what you were trying to get at...nothing new for me, I'm afraid.

[netboy47]

For me, there are two issues that Armstrong needs to resolve or this will never go away.

1. The issue of the vanishing/failed drug test in 2001 at the Tour de Suisse -

Evidence that Armstrong donated large sums of money to the UCI, cycling's governing body, has been public for many years but came under increased scrutiny last year when deposed 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis alleged that Armstrong told him he was able to quash a positive test for EPO during the 2001 Tour of Switzerland by negotiating a payment with the UCI.

Hamilton corroborated that story on "60 Minutes," saying a "relaxed" Armstrong told him the UCI had made the issue "go away." It is not clear whether the initial test, dubbed "suspicious" in Sunday's report, was ever backed up by a test on another sample. However, as World Anti-Doping Agency director general David Howman pointed out on camera, a clear ethical breach occurred when the director of the Swiss lab that conducted the test met with Armstrong and his team manager Johan Bruyneel at the behest of the UCI. That would constitute preferential treatment. Around the time of this alleged meeting, Armstrong donated $25,000 to the UCI. (He contributed $100,000 more to the governing body three years later.)

The show reported that the lab director said in an affidavit the meeting included a discussion of testing procedures that would have been useful for someone seeking to beat the test. If all the moving pieces in this story are connected, it will give credence to the theory that Armstrong and his organization were protected by the UCI in exchange for a quid pro quo. Bribing foreign officials is against U.S. law.

The UCI had much to lose if Armstrong tested positive. In 1998 (the year before Armstrong's first TDF victory), there was a huge doping scandal that caused the whole Festina team to be disqualified, so they spent the next couple of years improving and increasing the amount of testing to try to re-establish credibility with fans.


2. Lance's connection to Dr. Michele Ferrari -

A revelation that will resonate on both sides of the Atlantic is the report that Italian investigators have evidence that Armstrong's relationship with tainted trainer Michele Ferrari may have continued through Armstrong's two-season comeback (2009-10). Armstrong said he ended their professional arrangement in late 2004 when Ferrari was found guilty of sporting fraud and misuse of his medical license for distributing performance-enhancing drugs to athletes.

The "60 Minutes" report, which did not cite a specific source, said Italian authorities were examining evidence of large financial payments made by Armstrong and his "representatives" to Ferrari as recently as 2010. Obviously, it would take other supporting evidence to prove Ferrari actually advised Armstrong on doping strategies. Police raids in the original investigation of Ferrari turned up detailed training programs for other riders -- including Armstrong's former teammate Kevin Livingston -- with coded symbols that one Italian rider, Filippo Simeoni, testified were related to a doping regimen.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/c...e_d&id=6577192

My guess is that, just like in baseball, most riders were using PEDs in the 1990s and early 2000s.

One question - if Armstrong is found to have been using PEDs and you strip him of his 7 TDF wins, who do you give the titles to? If I'm not mistaken, most of the riders that shared the podium with him were involved in doping scandals of their own.

[Controller Jacobs]

Does anyone care to risk $3.87 to take el d up on his bet?

[B-Fly]

I would bet my life savings that Armstrong used PEDs.

Just for sake of clarification, I think blood doping can occur without the use of PEDs. I believe that both are illegal in cycling.

[onejayhawk]

For me, there are two issues that Armstrong needs to resolve or this will never go away.

It has already gone away as far as it could. If he was 100% pure, not only of things banned then, but of things banned now, there would still be these stories. It is the nature of extraordinary performance that people look for ways to belittle it.

This is the true test. The French had seven years of competition, and a national vested interest in catching him doping. If he was good enough to cheat under that much scrutiny, then he should perform on stage.

J

[chancellor]

BTW, how do you explain these wildly astronomic numbers on the tests?

Simple, as I noted, SI has them wrong - either the "B" samples did not match the "A" samples, or they have erroneous data. If he had tested 9:1 with both samples, he'd have been given a 2 year suspension, no questions asked. Even 7+ was buh-bye in the mid 90s. And it's not like Lance was any important person in the early/mid 90s - heck, he wasn't even considered a "super-domestique" by many. Moreover, virtually all of the tests where they have supposedly hard number data all pre-date his TDF wins.

Mind you, I have not ruled out that Armstrong did dope pre-cancer (in fact, it's likely), or even post-cancer (more doubtful, but still possible), but the evidence against him is Sharp Talonish thin. With one exception, if shown true: Hincapie's testimony. The medical side has failed completely. It's possible that Lance and his docs are years ahead of everyone else, and he doped for 10 years with more tests than anyone else, while virtually every serious competitor he's had has been busted one way or another. It's not just Landis and Hamilton that were caught. Pantani, Ullrich, Vinokourov, Basso, Vironque, Millar, Moreau...I think just about every serious competitor to Lance, other than Beloki, was busted for drugs. It's astounding that all these guys were caught - and, heck, even Contador has been caught with Clen in his system - and Lance, who's been tested far more than any of them, has not.