Official Sexual Harrassment Thread

[In the Corn]

From Sen. Franken's Facebook Account

The first thing I want to do is apologize: to Leeann, to everyone else who was part of that tour, to everyone who has worked for me, to everyone I represent, and to everyone who counts on me to be an ally and supporter and champion of women. There's more I want to say, but the first and most important thing—and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.

I respect women. I don't respect men who don't. And the fact that my own actions have given people a good reason to doubt that makes me feel ashamed.

But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.

For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.

Coming from the world of comedy, I've told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive. But the intentions behind my actions aren't the point at all. It's the impact these jokes had on others that matters. And I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to terms with that.

While I don't remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences.

I am asking that an ethics investigation be undertaken, and I will gladly cooperate.

And the truth is, what people think of me in light of this is far less important than what people think of women who continue to come forward to tell their stories. They deserve to be heard, and believed. And they deserve to know that I am their ally and supporter. I have let them down and am committed to making it up to them.

and if it's the only thing you care to hear, that's fine—is: I'm sorry.

I hate this statement and can't believe his PR used that language. It makes him sound angry and not very contrite, which negates his next paragraph.

But I want to say something else, too. Over the last few months, all of us—including and especially men who respect women—have been forced to take a good, hard look at our own actions and think (perhaps, shamefully, for the first time) about how those actions have affected women.

You can't tell me that Al doesn't remember this. Obviously he does, as he stated he didn't remember the rehearsal the same way. If he felt this was shameful, he would have been out in front of this when all of these allegations started. He had to know, even in the back of his mind, that this could surface. Being proactive would have been the right thing to do.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I agree with those saying there are degrees of violations, and each case is different. I've expressed before, I worry that as the #metoo movement expands, it might become diluted, and either some will be punished too hard, or worse, there may be a backlash against it that focuses on highlighting how the smaller transgressions are being overblown while not giving the proper attention and weight to the worse transgressions, and what we need to do as a society to change all of this.

In Franken's case, all I've seen is this photo, where it isn't even clear he ever actually touches her. I agree with nots that it looks like a stupid, inappropriate joke that deserves admonshment, and it probably should take him out of the running for president. But IF that is all that happened and nothing else comes out, this should not be resign in shame worthy. It is hard to make this argument without sounding like you are siding with the creeps, but I still think there has to be distinct levels of response, admonshment, and punishment for distinct levels of crimes/violations. I just don't see, so far, why folks like Horns thinks he should resign in shame. He apologized for the poor joke, and the woman has accepted the apology.

I was more troubled by the aggressive backstage kiss than the photo, assuming he didn't actually touch her there. The photo is in very poor taste, but I wouldn't call that a sexual assault.

Similarly, with Roy Moore, his propensity to date high-school girls and hang around the malls trolling for them is creepy and shows a lack of judgment, but I wouldn't necessarily want to stop a political candidacy over that when it happened 30 years ago. The forcible assaults on the 14-year-old and the other two adult women, on the other hand, are in a different league. Of course, what Roy Moore did with dating and trying to date high-school girls and not being good at respecting no for an answer generally establishes a pattern of behavior that makes the other more serious accusations seem much more likely to be true.

[Kevin Seitzer]

It's an extremely interesting topic to discuss.

And it is further complicated by courting cultures. What is "appropriate" is very subjective and different by culture and time period.

You might say we will have to move to an explicit permission based dating culture where every move is requested. That get's a little awkward ("may I place my hand in your hand?".. "ok now can I kiss you on your cheek" .. "ok now yada yada yada"). And in addition to the awkwardness, it also does not address situations of power imbalance - was permission granted only due to one of the parties feeling trapped?

I, for one, could not be more glad that I'm happily married. I cannot imagine the risks in trying to date these days, analyzing every ... single ... flirt and gesture and move. Because the reality is that right now you have to.

I guess I don't feel the same way about this. It seems like it's not all that hard to ask for permission, and I don't see a culture where women are out to get men for things that could be easily misinterpreted. Grabbing a woman on the ass when she's standing next to you in a photo or when she's walking out of the door of your office are things that any man ought to know he shouldn't do.

I don't see women coming out in droves and charging men with misinterpreting the signals and leaning in for a kiss at the end of a first date. I see them coming and out saying that they didn't want to be raped, drugged, and groped against their will, in situations that were obvious to both parties were not romantic situations.

[nots]

What are your thoughts on Roy Moore and his situation?

I despise Moore and his ego and his attempts to run Alabama like a theocracy. His blatant disregard for the laws of the State and Constitution anger me. I hope he loses and loses big.
However......I probably put much less stock in 40 year old claims than most folk. I feel like he's been a major player in that state for two decades plus. It tingles my Spidey Senses when someone comes forward with a pedophilia claim after so much time elapses when he just happens to be running for Senate. Why wasn't this claim brought up before when he was running in the GOP primary? Why weren't these claims brought forward the numerous other times he has stood for election? Maybe I am too cynical but some of the other claims seemed flawed. Obviously, he is a creepy, creepy guy. Seriously, who gets banned from a mall except for real weirdos.
Again, I hope he loses but not because of these claims.

[Ken]

It seems like it's not all that hard to ask for permission, and I don't see a culture where women are out to get men for things that could be easily misinterpreted

Definitely not hard to ask for permission, but that does not align with the culture. There are certainly men who ask permission for a kiss on a date, for example, but that's not the norm.
And I don't see it as women being out to get men at all. In fact this can go either direction. Rather, the current sensitivity may bring to light those misinterpretations that are actually common.

Grabbing a woman on the ass when she's standing next to you in a photo or when she's walking out of the door of your office are things that any man ought to know he shouldn't do.

Completely agree

I don't see women coming out in droves and charging men with misinterpreting the signals and leaning in for a kiss at the end of a first date. I see them coming and out saying that they didn't want to be raped, drugged, and groped against their will, in situations that were obvious to both parties were not romantic situations.

Definitely not coming out in droves, I agree with you there.

But lets go back to the Franken issue - there were two incidents, one was the photo of groping. But the other was a kiss in which both parties disagree on what happened and the intent. Not a rape or a drugging or groping, but a kiss.

And this is not to say that Franken is in the right, not in any way. But simply to say that those social interactions are going to be more difficult/tricky. Heck maybe they should be? I'm just glad I don't have to worry about it.

[Sour Masher]

I was more troubled by the aggressive backstage kiss than the photo, assuming he didn't actually touch her there. The photo is in very poor taste, but I wouldn't call that a sexual assault.

Similarly, with Roy Moore, his propensity to date high-school girls and hang around the malls trolling for them is creepy and shows a lack of judgment, but I wouldn't necessarily want to stop a political candidacy over that when it happened 30 years ago. The forcible assaults on the 14-year-old and the other two adult women, on the other hand, are in a different league. Of course, what Roy Moore did with dating and trying to date high-school girls and not being good at respecting no for an answer generally establishes a pattern of behavior that makes the other more serious accusations seem much more likely to be true.

Ah, I didn't read about the kissing yet...I'll have to read up on that account. I was just going by the photo.

And I agree on Moore that the most damning thing is him being sexually aggressive with girls. I also happen to think just his desire and focus to date girls half his age and not emotionally mature speaks a great deal about who he is as well, even without the assault aspect of it.

Clinically, analysis of ephebophilia suggest it is typical for men to find girls in there mid to late teens physically attractive. After all, many girls in this age range share many or all physical characteristics with fully mature adult women. Hell, even today, heck, especially today, our whole culture overly sexualizes girls and boys this age. That said, there is a big difference between recognizing physically mature traits as attractive and being drawn to this age range and trying to date and engage in sexual activity with this age range.

The pockets of courting culture within which this sort of behavior was not/is not atypical speaks to the tremendous, endemic misogyny and oppression women face in these communities. The reason why older men were (still are in some places) often allowed to pursue much younger women was because it takes longer for someone to grow into a good paying job and establish oneself as the sole breadwinner of a family than it does to sexually mature. A man was seen primarily as provider, so to be ready for marriage, he had to wait till he could do that. While a woman is seen primarily as a caregiver, cook, and reproducer, so as soon as she knew how to cook and clean and could physically give birth, she was seen as having all that she needed to be a wife. The whole thing is clearly oppressive to women on its own, but in Moore’s case, it was clear he wasn’t seeking a wife. He was attracted to these girls, because they weren’t his equal. They were younger, less experienced, scared, etc. The whole thing screams predator to me, even without the actual assaults.

[Gregg]

I was more troubled by the aggressive backstage kiss than the photo, assuming he didn't actually touch her there. The photo is in very poor taste, but I wouldn't call that a sexual assault.

Similarly, with Roy Moore, his propensity to date high-school girls and hang around the malls trolling for them is creepy and shows a lack of judgment, but I wouldn't necessarily want to stop a political candidacy over that when it happened 30 years ago. The forcible assaults on the 14-year-old and the other two adult women, on the other hand, are in a different league. Of course, what Roy Moore did with dating and trying to date high-school girls and not being good at respecting no for an answer generally establishes a pattern of behavior that makes the other more serious accusations seem much more likely to be true.

I agree with all of this.

[Hornsby]

I agree with those saying there are degrees of violations, and each case is different. I've expressed before, I worry that as the #metoo movement expands, it might become diluted, and either some will be punished too hard, or worse, there may be a backlash against it that focuses on highlighting how the smaller transgressions are being overblown while not giving the proper attention and weight to the worse transgressions, and what we need to do as a society to change all of this.

In Franken's case, all I've seen is this photo, where it isn't even clear he ever actually touches her. I agree with nots that it looks like a stupid, inappropriate joke that deserves admonshment, and it probably should take him out of the running for president. But IF that is all that happened and nothing else comes out, this should not be resign in shame worthy. It is hard to make this argument without sounding like you are siding with the creeps, but I still think there has to be distinct levels of response, admonshment, and punishment for distinct levels of crimes/violations. I just don't see, so far, why folks like Horns thinks he should resign in shame. He apologized for the poor joke, and the woman has accepted the apology.

Look, these things are ALL political in nature...LeeAnn Tweeden didn't suddenly remember that Al Franken did what he did in 2006. She's a conservative talk show person. Just as the women coming out of the closet against Roy Moore didn't suddenly recall the violations. These things are carefully timed. So Al got his hand caught in the cookie jar so to speak, I'd be really surprised if there aren't more stories by different women out there. I think that Cornyn's reaction was pretty telling...absolute power, etc.

Walk the walk that you claim to believe in...get out now, before things get worse.

[In the Corn]

Look, these things are ALL political in nature...LeeAnn Tweeden didn't suddenly remember that Al Franken did what he did in 2006. She's a conservative talk show person. Just as the women coming out of the closet against Roy Moore didn't suddenly recall the violations. These things are carefully timed. So Al got his hand caught in the cookie jar so to speak, I'd be really surprised if there aren't more stories by different women out there. I think that Cornyn's reaction was pretty telling...absolute power, etc.

Walk the walk that you claim to believe in...get out now, before things get worse.

[revo]

Yo Adrian!

"Sylvester Stallone allegedly forced a teenage girl into having sex with him and his bodyguard at a ritzy Las Vegas hotel more than three decades ago, according to a shocking police report uncovered Thursday.

An unidentified 16-year-old girl filed the report with the Las Vegas Police Department, alleging that Stallone and his bodyguard, Michael de Luca, "intimidated" her into having sex with them at the Las Vegas Hilton Hotel on July 26, 1986. The police report was first obtained by the Daily Mail.

Stallone, who was 40 at the time, apparently started having sex with the teen before inviting his de Luca to join them, according to the report.

The teen became "very uncomfortable" at that point but felt like she had "no choice" but to go on, the report states."

[Sour Masher]

Look, these things are ALL political in nature...LeeAnn Tweeden didn't suddenly remember that Al Franken did what he did in 2006. She's a conservative talk show person. Just as the women coming out of the closet against Roy Moore didn't suddenly recall the violations. These things are carefully timed. So Al got his hand caught in the cookie jar so to speak, I'd be really surprised if there aren't more stories by different women out there. I think that Cornyn's reaction was pretty telling...absolute power, etc.

Walk the walk that you claim to believe in...get out now, before things get worse.

If you believe Cornyn's reaction suggests more incidents will come to light for Franken, I see what you are saying. But if I am Franken, and I did this one thing, and I think back and I don't think I've done anything worse than this, and I don't think there is any reason for more people to come forward accusing me of things worse than this, I'm not walking away from my whole career over this one thing. And again, this one thing is the photo. I have not yet read up on what she accuses in terms of kissing. But this photo....if we are not just censuring, reprimanding, and condemning, but actually ending careers over something of this level now, I think we are going too far.

On the flip side, maybe all of this makes me a viable political candidate. Because if this level of wrong-doing now disqualifies you from public office, I might be one of the few guys who still qualifies. I say that to be clear that I am not defending this behavior based on me having ever done anything like this. I have not. As I said in another post, I've always been overly cautious about making sure I had very clear signals from a women before making a move. I don't condone this behavior at all, and I don't dismiss it as boys being boy. I'm a male who has gone 40 years without doing any of this. But as much as I respect the serious nature of all of these things coming to light, I just don't think some of them, including this one (based on the photo, anyway), rises to the level of career suicide.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Look, these things are ALL political in nature...LeeAnn Tweeden didn't suddenly remember that Al Franken did what he did in 2006. She's a conservative talk show person. Just as the women coming out of the closet against Roy Moore didn't suddenly recall the violations. These things are carefully timed. So Al got his hand caught in the cookie jar so to speak, I'd be really surprised if there aren't more stories by different women out there. I think that Cornyn's reaction was pretty telling...absolute power, etc.

Walk the walk that you claim to believe in...get out now, before things get worse.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Of course these women didn't suddenly recall what was done to them. If you've ever been a victim of something like this, you know that you think about it all the time and, ironically, beat yourself up about it and at your worst moments think about how it is evidence that you aren't worth very much as a person. No, that doesn't make sense, but the human psyche isn't logical. These women don't come forward with this out of some desire to make a political statement. (Maybe there are some exceptions to that, but they must be rare.) In almost every case, it must be very difficult for the women to bring up these incidents again and talk about them publicly. Maybe cathartic in some ways, but still difficult.

[Boone]

I will trade you my Franken for your Moore and Trump.

[Ken]

I will trade you my Franken for your Moore and Trump.

Whatever game we're trading in, from the trade parameters I get the feeling that "the only winning move is not to play"

[Hornsby]

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Of course these women didn't suddenly recall what was done to them. If you've ever been a victim of something like this, you know that you think about it all the time and, ironically, beat yourself up about it and at your worst moments think about how it is evidence that you aren't worth very much as a person. No, that doesn't make sense, but the human psyche isn't logical. These women don't come forward with this out of some desire to make a political statement. (Maybe there are some exceptions to that, but they must be rare.) In almost every case, it must be very difficult for the women to bring up these incidents again and talk about them publicly. Maybe cathartic in some ways, but still difficult.

I'm sure that it's terribly difficult for these women to come forward and publicly have to air their long hidden secrets. All the more reason to make it as easy on them as humanly possible, IMO. Now Moore has proven to be a craven coward, continually dragging these women through a sort of public hell, they neither want, nor deserve. I would hope that Franken would be a better man, own up to his errors, and save this woman, and any potential others, the same hell that Moore's victims are going through.

What good is an investigation by the Senate going to do? There's a picture, there's a he said-she said story, and potentially others to come. Better for all, IMO, top pull the band-aid off quickly and end the pain for all concerned.

If we're smart here in Minnesota, the Governor can appoint a woman of integrity to his position for the remainder of his term...