Official Sexual Harrassment Thread

[heyelander]

Skimming this thread, it seems like we've gotten caught up in the celebrity aspect of it and haven't grappled with the broader societal questions about the workplace and dating and justice, etc.

How has #metoo caused any of you to rethink your own behavior over the course of your workplace and dating career, if at all? What would you want to teach your sons and your daughters about how to behave in the world, both for their own protection and for their overall character as human beings? What worries/concerns do you have about the #metoo moment/movement?

Those are the good questions for me. Interested in hearing thoughts, and I promise to share some of my own, rather than just posing questions.

In retrospect, I behaved horribly my first time...

I was (am) socially awkward... she was a year younger but more experienced... I was 16 and at military school and was the only admitted virgin out of 500 guys... I needed to get that shit done. We had been on again-off again boyfriend and girlfriend for a while. She invited me over, but when I got there she had changed her mind... I pulled out all the bullshit... don't you love me, you did it with him and not me, what's wrong with me, you said you would... At the time I felt like I had zero control in the situation, but in retrospect I was an older guy, in her house, who wouldn't leave. She relented, and a minute later we were done. No hard feelings afterwards (that I know of...), but thinking about it all now, it was not what should have happened, and really wasn't a good thing for either of us (but I'm sure much worse for her.) I have no idea how she thinks about it, or if she ever even does... it was a long time ago and we haven't spoken in decades. I hate the thought of it.

We need to do a better job with our boys... I hate that I felt as much pressure as I did... I hate the lack of control I felt, and I hate the lack of understanding of the control I had and abused. this is what rape culture means to me.

[B-Fly]

In retrospect, I behaved horribly my first time...

I was (am) socially awkward... she was a year younger but more experienced... I was 16 and at military school and was the only admitted virgin out of 500 guys... I needed to get that shit done. We had been on again-off again boyfriend and girlfriend for a while. She invited me over, but when I got there she had changed her mind... I pulled out all the bullshit... don't you love me, you did it with him and not me, what's wrong with me, you said you would... At the time I felt like I had zero control in the situation, but in retrospect I was an older guy, in her house, who wouldn't leave. She relented, and a minute later we were done. No hard feelings afterwards (that I know of...), but thinking about it all now, it was not what should have happened, and really wasn't a good thing for either of us (but I'm sure much worse for her.) I have no idea how she thinks about it, or if she ever even does... it was a long time ago and we haven't spoken in decades. I hate the thought of it.

We need to do a better job with our boys... I hate that I felt as much pressure as I did... I hate the lack of control I felt, and I hate the lack of understanding of the control I had and abused. this is what rape culture means to me.

Thanks for sharing this. I was always too petrified of rejection to ever press things with a girl during my high school, college and law school years. (I had only one sexual relationship before graduating law school -- a four-year relationship in which I don't believe I ever crossed a #metoo line.) But I have a lot of retrospective concerns/regrets about how I behaved in my workplaces during my late twenties and early thirties - not pivoting the way I should have from behaviors that I think were acceptable in college and law school but that were probably inappropriate for the workplace, including flirting, drinking/partying, sexual talk including games like "never have I ever" or "purity tests". That included interns who I had been involved in interviewing, hiring and supervising when I was a law clerk, paralegals I was involved in interviewing and supervising when I was a lawyer, and a few secretaries. At the law firm I recall being proud of and defiant about the fact that I treated the paralegals and secretaries as friends and peers rather than "underlings", and I actively advocated for them on certain workplace issues, earning one private scolding from a partner not to act as a "shop steward" for the non-lawyers at the firm. But simultaneously, I was insufficiently sensitive to actual and perceived power imbalances and the potential discomfort and inherent coercion the (mostly younger) women may have experienced, even absent anything remotely resembling direct coercion or quid-pro-quo job impacts. That period included one consensual but tumultuous relationship with a paralegal at my firm that lasted two and a half years (extending beyond when each of us left the firm for other jobs), which at her request was never disclosed to the partners even though we lived together for part of that time. In my next job I recommended the hire of a different young woman who had been a paralegal at the old firm, who largely ended up working on projects under my supervision. Following a breakup with my prior girlfriend, I developed a crush on that young woman and asked her out (sheepishly). She politely declined and I never pressed it with her again, but retroactively I feel like I never should have asked given the workplace power dynamics. Many of the female paralegals from my time at the law firm remain my friends, including attending each others' weddings, etc. But I still think I contributed to (or even spearheaded) a workplace environment that blurred the lines between professional and personal relationships in ways that were inappropriate and could have been perceived as hostile either by the women in the work place who participated or by those who didn't. I would like to think I would have independently come to realize the need to stop those workplace behaviors as I advanced professionally, even if I hadn't met my wife-to-be (through an online dating site, not through work) shortly thereafter. But I can't be certain. Engagement, marriage, fatherhood, higher job responsibilities and maturity have certainly brought me to a place where I think I've now been behaving the way I should with all of the women in my workplaces. But I definitely regret/second-guess some of my choices and behaviors as a younger man.

[Teenwolf]

I dated a girl once who had a lot of problems, depression, anxiety, etc, with multiple prescriptions to manage these. I used to like dating girls with these sorts of issues because it made me feel a greater sense of control or bigger slice of the power dynamic, though at the time I would tell myself I liked helping people. I guess I also identified as a damaged and fragile person seeking likewise. Anyhow, I was once on a date with this girl, 2nd date with her, I believe. We went to a bar and got sloshed, back in my heaviest drinking days, less than a year before quitting drinking. We walked back to her place and fooled around, but didn't have sex and fell asleep together. Later that night, we woke up and hooked up, then fell back asleep. From my recollection, nothing was said at the time, and there was no resistance. I woke up in the morning and she was a bit freaked out, saying that it "wasn't rape... but it was a form of 'rape culture'". I remember being super defensive, dismissive, and pissed off. She copied 30 pages from a textbook on the topic of rape culture and made me read it. I didn't engage with the material, thinking it didn't apply to me. We continued to date for a couple of months, and it was a nightmare. I do hold myself responsible for not acquiring consent before we had sex in the middle of the night that time. I don't believe it was a sexual assault, but I do feel like it's a grey area that could have left me criminally responsible, if this girl had taken a different stance... or even if this incident happened post-Weinstein, I feel like this crazy and vindictive girl might have had me charged. So it's scary to think about, but it's also a wake-up call as to the importance of acquiring consent, and the importance of the #MeToo movement to re-shape our thinking of what constitutes harassment or rape culture.

[baldgriff]

So how do you prove that she gave consent? Unless you are getting some signed document this will continue to be a he said/she said. How often do you carry the consent to have sex form?

[Teenwolf]

So how do you prove that she gave consent? Unless you are getting some signed document this will continue to be a he said/she said. How often do you carry the consent to have sex form?

I feel like the point is to be aware of the importance of obtaining verbal consent, and to hold ourselves to the standard that if a sexual partner is intoxicated beyond being able to give consent, then it's important to recognize BOTH the moral responsibility, and the legal responsibility, to disengage from sex. She told me "no" when we were fooling around, she never amended her position (even though we wordlessly hooked up later that night). I understand it's grey area, but it seems we could all benefit from some introspection, and taking these issues more seriously rather than being dismissive.

You sure do hate grey areas, eh BG? Slippery slopes too.

[baldgriff]

Nah, just pointing out that this has been and will always be a "he said / she said" type of situation. Yes, we should be respectful of each person. We also should take responsibility for our actions both good and bad. If we knowingly put ourselves in harms way and get hurt, arent we partly culpable for the harm that occurred?

Im not going to condone harassment or rape - I dont believe anyone actually does.

[Teenwolf]

Nah, just pointing out that this has been and will always be a "he said / she said" type of situation. Yes, we should be respectful of each person. We also should take responsibility for our actions both good and bad. If we knowingly put ourselves in harms way and get hurt, arent we partly culpable for the harm that occurred?

Im not going to condone harassment or rape - I dont believe anyone actually does.

Rape victims are not in any way responsible for being raped. Rapists are responsible.

By your logic, when one FAILS to receive consent before engaging in sex, OR when one engages in sex with someone intoxicated beyond the ability to give consent, then the sexual assaulter knowingly put themselves in harm's way, and may get hurt through criminal justice... they're entirely culpable for the harm that occurred, because they ignored their responsibility to acquire consent. Wouldn't that make a lot more sense?

[baldgriff]

Whoa --- slow down here! I am in no way stating a rape victim is responsible for being raped! I dont believe that people would knowingly place themselves in harms way if they know someone is a rapist.

If I attempt to walk across the street during rush hour traffic, against the lights and get hit I am partly culpable for that decision. I know that there is a possibility that I could get hit, because there are cars going past me as I am walking. If I go out with someone and dont have any knowledge that they are a rapist - I am not knowingly putting myself in harms way.

[Fresno Bob]

consent is sexy

[Teenwolf]

Whoa --- slow down here! I am in no way stating a rape victim is responsible for being raped! I dont believe that people would knowingly place themselves in harms way if they know someone is a rapist.

If I attempt to walk across the street during rush hour traffic, against the lights and get hit I am partly culpable for that decision. I know that there is a possibility that I could get hit, because there are cars going past me as I am walking. If I go out with someone and dont have any knowledge that they are a rapist - I am not knowingly putting myself in harms way.

I'm confused. Which rape victims are the ones "knowingly putting themselves in harm's way?" Sure sounds like victim blaming to me.

There's a band I used to love called Crystal Castles. 2-piece, guy and girl. The girl left the band a couple of years ago, and recently claimed that she was repeatedly raped by her bandmate. Would you say that she brought this on herself, given that she made the choice to stay in the band for such a long time?

Rape victims have a very hard time in life. They experience an incredible amount of guilt and shame, to a degree most wouldn't be able to relate to, and this is a factor in some people rationalizing being raped, and continuing to have inexplicable relationships with their rapists after the fact. It's a defense mechanism meant to limit emotional damage. But the damage is real, and devastating, and changes a person for the rest of their life when they do confront it.

Bringing up "culpability" for rape is just an awful, disgusting talking point. Don't lower yourself to the level of Fox News, BG.

[baldgriff]

Would I say that she brought in on? No. I would also say that at some point she took control of her situation and got out of it. Yes, she may have been a victim of a horrible thing, but she also somehow decided to take control of her life and moved forward.

Im probably not expressing myself well here.

[Mithrandir]

I'm confused. Which rape victims are the ones "knowingly putting themselves in harm's way?" Sure sounds like victim blaming to me.

There's a band I used to love called Crystal Castles. 2-piece, guy and girl. The girl left the band a couple of years ago, and recently claimed that she was repeatedly raped by her bandmate. Would you say that she brought this on herself, given that she made the choice to stay in the band for such a long time?

Rape victims have a very hard time in life. They experience an incredible amount of guilt and shame, to a degree most wouldn't be able to relate to, and this is a factor in some people rationalizing being raped, and continuing to have inexplicable relationships with their rapists after the fact. It's a defense mechanism meant to limit emotional damage. But the damage is real, and devastating, and changes a person for the rest of their life when they do confront it.

Bringing up "culpability" for rape is just an awful, disgusting talking point. Don't lower yourself to the level of Fox News, BG.

This pisses me off so fucking much. Rape victims are treated so damn ridiculously in this wonderful society that we have. I'm so damn sick of people not understanding how truly vile and disgusting rape is.

[DMT]

This pisses me off so fucking much. Rape victims are treated so damn ridiculously in this wonderful society that we have. I'm so damn sick of people not understanding how truly vile and disgusting rape is.

That's because white male power must be protected at all costs.

[senorsheep]

I'm confused. Which rape victims are the ones "knowingly putting themselves in harm's way?" Sure sounds like victim blaming to me.

There's a band I used to love called Crystal Castles. 2-piece, guy and girl. The girl left the band a couple of years ago, and recently claimed that she was repeatedly raped by her bandmate. Would you say that she brought this on herself, given that she made the choice to stay in the band for such a long time?

Rape victims have a very hard time in life. They experience an incredible amount of guilt and shame, to a degree most wouldn't be able to relate to, and this is a factor in some people rationalizing being raped, and continuing to have inexplicable relationships with their rapists after the fact. It's a defense mechanism meant to limit emotional damage. But the damage is real, and devastating, and changes a person for the rest of their life when they do confront it.

Bringing up "culpability" for rape is just an awful, disgusting talking point. Don't lower yourself to the level of Fox News, BG.

You are confused. Saying that there are sensible precautions women can take to reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted is not the same as saying they are culpable if it happens.

Take your own example. Were there sensible precautions measures the girl could have taken to prevent that from happening? I can think of several:

1) Don't go to the bar alone.
2) Don't get sloshed at the bar.
3) Don't leave the bar alone with a drunken date you don't know very well.
4) Don't take your drunken date you don't know very well back to your place.
5) Don't fool around with a drunken date you don't know very well.
6) Don't allow a drunken date you don't know very well to crash at your place.

I covered all these preventative measures and many, many more with my daughters when they reached the proper age. If they ignored that advice, that would certainly qualify as "knowingly putting themselves in harm's way." That has nothing to do with blaming them; it's a simple statement of fact. Our focus should be primarily on prevention, not blame, and conflating the two with knee-jerk PC rape culture nonsense only puts women at greater risk by downplaying the power they do have in the equation, IMO. Women absolutely can and should take charge of their safety with smart and sensible preparation and decision-making. I believe that message is far more empowering and effective than "If it happens, it's not your fault."

[DMT]

You are confused. Saying that there are sensible precautions women can take to reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted is not the same as saying they are culpable if it happens.

Take your own example. Were there sensible precautions measures the girl could have taken to prevent that from happening? I can think of several:

1) Don't go to the bar alone.
2) Don't get sloshed at the bar.
3) Don't leave the bar alone with a drunken date you don't know very well.
4) Don't take your drunken date you don't know very well back to your place.
5) Don't fool around with a drunken date you don't know very well.
6) Don't allow a drunken date you don't know very well to crash at your place.

I covered all these preventative measures and many, many more with my daughters when they reached the proper age. If they ignored that advice, that would certainly qualify as "knowingly putting themselves in harm's way." That has nothing to do with blaming them; it's a simple statement of fact. Our focus should be primarily on prevention, not blame, and conflating the two with knee-jerk PC rape culture nonsense only puts women at greater risk by downplaying the power they do have in the equation, IMO. Women absolutely can and should take charge of their safety with smart and sensible preparation and decision-making. I believe that message is far more empowering and effective than "If it happens, it's not your fault."

Good post.