The 'Right' Thing

[GwynnInTheHall]

I know this goes to the basic question of 'is man innately Evil or Good' but from my perspective knowing Right from Wrong is a pretty easy thing.

I believe KNOWING what is right is innate, we know what choices we should make. Now what we actually choose to do is something else altogether, but do you believe that we innately know right from wrong, are taught right from wrong or is it a bit of both?

If it's both, what's innate and what's taught?

[Gregg]

You mention knowing right from wrong. Does this assume all wrong is evil or partially evil? I guess we have to understand the definition of evil for this discussion

If one knows what is evil and chooses it, would that be proof of an one's innate evilness?

Changing the subject a bit. I think we can all agree that child abuse is wrong. I would even say that most would consider child abuse evil. It would seem the abused would flee from becoming abusers, yet this does not seem to be the case. It is not uncommon for the abused to become the abuser. This would seem to be on the what is taught side of things.

[Pogues]

Taught, learned over the course of human history. We were once barely above animals, we had to learn that killing each other is frowned upon. We had to learn not screwing in a patch of cacti was bad. We had to learn that nightshade is not to be enjoyed with a juicy mammoth steak.

We can universally agree on RJ that slavery is bad. But it wasn't always believed to be so. It was the way of the ancient world. Win the war, take slaves. Now, the world would go nuts if France went to war with Belgium and took slaves as a result of defeating little Belgium.

I say it's all taught/learned.

[Lucky]

I think you have to approach this question in two realms. The first deals with whether man is inherently good, which is a question about the nature of man. This can be argued in the abstract.

The second relates to man's decisons in the real world...whether man, given the option, will choose good or evil, and what will determine those choices.

I don't know the answer to either question, but I do know that a huge issue is that we so often make decisions based upon imperfect information.

[TranaGreg]

Taught, learned over the course of human history. We were once barely above animals, we had to learn that killing each other is frowned upon. We had to learn not screwing in a patch of cacti was bad. We had to learn that nightshade is not to be enjoyed with a juicy mammoth steak.

We can universally agree on RJ that slavery is bad. But it wasn't always believed to be so. It was the way of the ancient world. Win the war, take slaves. Now, the world would go nuts if France went to war with Belgium and took slaves as a result of defeating little Belgium.

I say it's all taught/learned.

I tend to agree. After all, what is innate? I'd suggest that's it's lessons learned by our ancestors that gets instilled in each of us at such a young age that they don't even feel learned.

Altho personally I think that not screwing in a patch of cacti is good. Maybe I'm just weird that way tho.

[DMT]

Yep, I agree with Pogue, all learned. We think murder is evil but ask the children raised by Boko Haram about murder and they'd have a very different perspective.

[onejayhawk]

I would start the inquiry with whether the problem is doable. Clearly, there is something not right. Can it be corrected internally?

Most religions say, no. Man cannot fix himself; God must do it. This assumes that man is inherently corrupt.

Yep, I agree with Pogue, all learned. We think murder is evil but ask the children raised by Boko Haram about murder and they'd have a very different perspective.

Not really. Those children define outsiders as dangerous animals, hence killing is not murder. Their feelings within their social structure would be closely aligned.

J

[DMT]

Not really. Those children define outsiders as dangerous animals, hence killing is not murder. Their feelings within their social structure would be closely aligned.

Viewing outsiders as sub-human then is the learned difference.

[TranaGreg]

I would start the inquiry with whether the problem is doable. Clearly, there is something not right. Can it be corrected internally?

Most religions say, no. Man cannot fix himself; God must do it. This assumes that man is inherently corrupt.

...

Not really. Those children define outsiders as dangerous animals, hence killing is not murder. Their feelings within their social structure would be closely aligned.

J

Interesting perspective. So the concept of what is right/wrong only applies within one's given social structure? It doesn't apply to outsiders?

Isn't that precisely why religion - and laws - were created?

[B-Fly]

I believe there is probably some Darwinian psychology that we're born with. Within a primitive context divorced from modern societal norms, being sociable, i.e., not acting in a way that provoked violence or shunning from other humans, is adaptive behavior that increases the chance of surviving, attracting a mate and procreating. Accordingly, those personality traits would probably end up being passed on genetically more than anti-social behaviors. That said, I think the lion's share of our morality is learned after we emerge from the womb. As a parent, I certainly know that my kids didn't know instinctively to share and be thoughtful toward others. Now brain development patters may also be somewhat hardwired, where it's adaptive as a child to be selfish and demanding but it becomes more adaptive as the child ages to become more sociable. I just think that a lot of that brain development and childhood moral development is a response to positive or negative reinforcement by parents most importantly and other humans secondarily.

[Gregg]

I believe there is probably some Darwinian psychology that we're born with. Within a primitive context divorced from modern societal norms, being sociable, i.e., not acting in a way that provoked violence or shunning from other humans, is adaptive behavior that increases the chance of surviving, attracting a mate and procreating. Accordingly, those personality traits would probably end up being passed on genetically more than anti-social behaviors. That said, I think the lion's share of our morality is learned after we emerge from the womb. As a parent, I certainly know that my kids didn't know instinctively to share and be thoughtful toward others. Now brain development patters may also be somewhat hardwired, where it's adaptive as a child to be selfish and demanding but it becomes more adaptive as the child ages to become more sociable. I just think that a lot of that brain development and childhood moral development is a response to positive or negative reinforcement by parents most importantly and other humans secondarily.

We do not have to teach our children to do wrong. We do have to teach them to do right. One of the best ways to teach them is to show them by example. Our actions have to line up with our words. Do as I say not as I do will not work over the long haul.

[GwynnInTheHall]

We do not have to teach our children to do wrong. We do have to teach them to do right. One of the best ways to teach them is to show them by example. Our actions have to line up with our words. Do as I say not as I do will not work over the long haul.

I don't understand this, is it your implication that we know naturally what NOT to do?

[DMT]

I don't understand this, is it your implication that we know naturally what NOT to do?

Left to their own devices, kids will fuck up.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Left to their own devices, kids will fuck up.

I think it's very much like B Fly said, some things are hardwired, others learned.

I guess my question now is this:

If the majority of Right vs wrong is taught--How will we, as a society, ever advance past petty prejudices?

If Racism is taught, Homophobia and Misogyny, How will we ever advance past these things? Not to mention Greed and Selfishness.

Taught.

So how do we survive these obvious toxins? How do we prevent them? How do we eradicate them?

[DMT]

Progress is slow and difficult. All of those toxins will still be around long after we're gone. Accepting that yet continuing to still fight against them is the challenge.