'16 Democratic Nomination Thread

[Lucky]

That isn't true, I was there you weren't.

Unless you're implying that I am not being honest.

Edit.. Not at the state convention, but the same shit went down at both the original caucus and county convention.

Hillary did win the caucus by five points. That is true. Neither of us was there.

I'm not implying that you are being dishonest. I'm not sure what you are implying.

As neither of us attended the state convention, it remains an open question as to what happened at other places at other times.

[Lucky]

heh this reminds me of a disagreement I had with someone else regarding an At bat.

I was right there and saw the at bat, though from my perspective and using my years of experience, that it was a good at bat. the other guy was at home using stat tracker or qeusttech or some analytic gizmo and was sure it was a poor at bat.

Bottomline for me is, I was there--you weren't. I'll be trusting my take over yours and if my eyes and mind are fooling me, so be it.

Eye witnesses are a relatively unreliable source of evidence. People see what they want to see.

[Lucky]

and yeah, you need to be involved in the process to speak intelligently on such an emotional topic.

hodor!!!

[ironfist]

the #nevertrumpers are having the same tantrum now, but when election day rolls around, they'll vote trump to stop hillary, just like most of the bernie butthurt crowd will suck it up and vote for hillary to stop trump.

This. You already see most of the Republicans who were big Trump detractors starting to turn around. Once the Sanders supporters get some time to cool off, they will end up voting for Hillary or not voting. While I have a few friends who are Bernie supporters who say they will vote for Trump, I am pretty sure that one of them will change her mind. If the election were held a week after the convention, then I suspect there might be a different result, but with time to cool off, I suspect those people will realize that Trump is not going to change the nation for the better.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Hillary did win the caucus by five points. That is true. Neither of us was there.

I'm not implying that you are being dishonest. I'm not sure what you are implying.

As neither of us attended the state convention, it remains an open question as to what happened at other places at other times.

I was there at the initial caucus and county conventions.

No I wasn't at the state convention, but I followed it as an alternate on the Sanders feed on my phone from the Sanders campaign manager in NV and twitter.

I get it, you're a Judge, you need evidence and proof, irrefutable to make a decision. I don't I can put two and two together and rely on my personal experience and intelligence to know for certain, the State Convention was a sham from the start designed to get back the delegates HRC lost at the County. Anyone with half an ounce of common sense can see that from the many videos and analysis readily available on the net.

The Caucus isn't over until the final gavel at the state and she didn't WIN by 5 she rigged (or the NV Dem Party) the outcome to STEAL back that 5 point win. It obvious, I just don;t understand how you can't see that.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Eye witnesses are a relatively unreliable source of evidence. People see what they want to see.

Meh, I'm pretty good at sorting out the bullshit from the truth. And to this point in my life I've been more often right than wrong...by a wide margin.

[GwynnInTheHall]

hodor!!!

Please---it's Willis now.

[Lucky]

Meh, I'm pretty good at sorting out the bullshit from the truth. And to this point in my life I've been more often right than wrong...by a wide margin.

Yeah, that's the thing. Eye witnesses are always convinced. People see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe, especially people with strong opinions.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Yeah, that's the thing. Eye witnesses are always convinced. People see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe, especially people with strong opinions.

I'll stand on my record.

How about this, I saw you for what? 4-5 minutes in Dallas? I knew immediately you weren't thrilled to see me, not that you were unhappy, just non-plussed. I knew you'd decline my offer to join us for a drink before I asked, but asked anyway. And I knew there was no way you'd visit the next day even if it was to just say hi if by chance you had to drop your son off.

I knew this all withing a few minutes.

I get it, I'm not your favorite guy. I do appreciate your efforts to play nice here and your civility in person. But we both know how it is.

And even if I'm wrong about your feelings toward me, I wasn't wrong in my immediate assessment of your mood and demeanor going forward.

[Hornsby]

Yeah, that's the thing. Eye witnesses are always convinced. People see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe, especially people with strong opinions.

I'll back Lucky up here from watching many a trial and talking to lots of cops...they HATE eyewitnesses, everyone sees things differently, so trying to sort out their stories is a nightmare. And every last one is absolutely convinced that THEY are the one who saw thing correctly.

Same goes for the "evidence" in videos and blogs on the internet. People will instinctively go to the sites and watch the videos that agree at least somewhat with their position...it's just human nature.

[Lucky]

I was there at the initial caucus and county conventions.

No I wasn't at the state convention, but I followed it as an alternate on the Sanders feed on my phone from the Sanders campaign manager in NV and twitter.

I get it, you're a Judge, you need evidence and proof, irrefutable to make a decision. I don't I can put two and two together and rely on my personal experience and intelligence to know for certain, the State Convention was a sham from the start designed to get back the delegates HRC lost at the County. Anyone with half an ounce of common sense can see that from the many videos and analysis readily available on the net.

The Caucus isn't over until the final gavel at the state and she didn't WIN by 5 she rigged (or the NV Dem Party) the outcome to STEAL back that 5 point win. It obvious, I just don;t understand how you can't see that.

I'm not a judge anymore, but I do rely upon evidence for decision making over innuendo and emotion. I also know that not everything on the internet is factual and unbiased, even if it is a video. What may seem obvious to you may seem sketchy and slanted to me, and designed to create a certain impression.

I don't know what happened, because, as I mentioned, I wasn't there. Here's what Jon Ralston, the top political reporter in the state, says about it:

"Despite their social media frothing and self-righteous screeds, the facts reveal that the Sanders folks disregarded rules, then when shown the truth, attacked organizers and party officials as tools of a conspiracy to defraud the senator of what was never rightfully his in the first place. Instead of acknowledging they were out-organized by a Clinton campaign chastened by county convention results and reanimated to cement the caucus numbers at the Paris, the Sanders folks have decided to cry conflagration in a crowded building, without regard to what they burn down in the process.

If what happens in Vegas happens in Philadelphia, the chances of a unified Democratic Party in the general election are virtually nonexistent and the odds of a President Trump suddenly don’t look so long."

From what I have observed about Sandernistas, this doesn't sound implausible.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I'll back Lucky up here from watching many a trial and talking to lots of cops...they HATE eyewitnesses, everyone sees things differently, so trying to sort out their stories is a nightmare. And every last one is absolutely convinced that THEY are the one who saw thing correctly.

Same goes for the "evidence" in videos and blogs on the internet. People will instinctively go to the sites and watch the videos that agree at least somewhat with their position...it's just human nature.

Show me one video that contradicts my impression of the NV County Convention or State Convention. Just one.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I'm not a judge anymore, but I do rely upon evidence for decision making over innuendo and emotion. I also know that not everything on the internet is factual and unbiased, even if it is a video. What may seem obvious to you may seem sketchy and slanted to me, and designed to create a certain impression.

I don't know what happened, because, as I mentioned, I wasn't there. Here's what Jon Ralston, the top political reporter in the state, says about it:

"Despite their social media frothing and self-righteous screeds, the facts reveal that the Sanders folks disregarded rules, then when shown the truth, attacked organizers and party officials as tools of a conspiracy to defraud the senator of what was never rightfully his in the first place. Instead of acknowledging they were out-organized by a Clinton campaign chastened by county convention results and reanimated to cement the caucus numbers at the Paris, the Sanders folks have decided to cry conflagration in a crowded building, without regard to what they burn down in the process.

If what happens in Vegas happens in Philadelphia, the chances of a unified Democratic Party in the general election are virtually nonexistent and the odds of a President Trump suddenly don’t look so long."

From what I have observed about Sandernistas, this doesn't sound implausible.

So this guy supports my position that the Sandernistas (I like that) will burn it down? He's right--the national Convention is going to be a bloodbath as thousands of Sanders delegates and his campaign people, will be upset and vocal before they even get there.

I've also mentioned they need to find a better way to convey their disappointment. Yeah they react poorly when they see bullshit real or imagined.

However enough was done to incite them leading up to this, so I can understand their anger. Their response? Well you all know I've advocated violence as a solution on more than one occasion so you shouldn't be surprised I'm not upset at their response..

[Hornsby]

Show me one video that contradicts my impression of the NV County Convention or State Convention. Just one.

That's exactly my point, finding an "unbiased" take on what happened is virtually impossible, everyone is likely to go to videos that support their position...No one is denying that it was chaotic, there's just little evidence to me that anything was fixed. Could it have been handled better by both sides? Sure. Will it change in the future? Probably. Here's a fairly even handed account of what happened.

[Lucky]

I'll stand on my record.

How about this, I saw you for what? 4-5 minutes in Dallas? I knew immediately you weren't thrilled to see me, not that you were unhappy, just non-plussed. I knew you'd decline my offer to join us for a drink before I asked, but asked anyway. And I knew there was no way you'd visit the next day even if it was to just say hi if by chance you had to drop your son off.

I knew this all withing a few minutes.

I get it, I'm not your favorite guy. I do appreciate your efforts to play nice here and your civility in person. But we both know how it is.

And even if I'm wrong about your feelings toward me, I wasn't wrong in my immediate assessment of your mood and demeanor going forward.

You have a record, Doig?

The more I think about it, the more damned arrogant I think it is for you to speculate in a post about what may or may not have been going through my mind when last we crossed paths.

And that may just offer an insight as to why the Sanders campaign is so right for you. You can simultaneously feel superior and play the victim card. And you can hang out with your new pseudo-radical buddies and talk about how much the "establishment" screwed you and Bernie. It's hard to say whether ignorance or arrogance is the greater force behind that campaign.