"Friendly people"...

[Pogues]

Maybe you said this earlier in the thread, but do you (well did you) clean up after your dog?

So, I guess that's a no then?

I reacted very passive-aggressively when someone allowed their dog to roam free in my area of our townhouse. I gathered up all their dog shit in a bucket, and set it by their garage. I thought that maybe that would explain to them my displeasure with them allowing their dog to crap near my house without cleaning it up. I assumed they would empty the bucket and leave it near my garage.

After three days, I dumped the bucket on their patio.

[Kevin Seitzer]

A townhouse community and a 100-acre wooded area are a wee bit different, methinks.

Surely I'm not the only guy here who grew up in the country. I know I didn't used to be. I know you guys are giving Mith a rough time, but still, the thought of shooting at your neighbors is bizarre. Maybe in the holler in Arkansas where you don't know the people from the next holler over and you don't want the revenuers finding your still. But not in any functioning rural area. Has country living really changed that much in 20 years?

We were glad if our neighbors wanted to walk on our land, and we assumed they didn't care if we walked on theirs. It wasn't a big deal. Of course, you didn't go walking on crop land when the crops were growing. But through pastures or wooded areas...it was no big deal. Of course, we also knew who all our neighbors were. When we were younger, my parents would keep an eye on their kids and they kept an eye on us. There was a community spirit. We weren't a bunch of strangers who happened to be living on adjoining properties. When we were older, the teenagers would go off on somebody's property and get drunk. People didn't shoot other people. People helped other people. If people were in need, they helped each other. If you found a stranger wandering across your property, the most likely reaction was to ask if he needed help. Not to go get a gun. That's not how things work in the country. I know I've become a city boy, but you guys are really making me pine for the country again. People aren't litigious and contentious jerks to each other in the country like you guys seem to think is standard in the world. Good grief!

[nullnor]

i'll be the first to admit my cat didn't like the dogs next door. but for over a decade those dogs existence and presence kept many dangerous things, at night and in the neighborhood, at bay. the fisher cat for one thing. many house-held pets survive a lot longer because they have dogs living next door. even if you never knew that. cats know it, even when they protest.

i can give you my elegant and patented speech about dogs. but they gave up their wild survival as wolves to be like us. they gave up their independence thousands of years ago to help us. and they would want us to use it to our advantage in every way they can be useful and part of us.

[nullnor]

thing about dogs is they care about their community.

[Pogues]

A townhouse community and a 100-acre wooded area are a wee bit different, methinks.

Surely I'm not the only guy here who grew up in the country. I know I didn't used to be. I know you guys are giving Mith a rough time, but still, the thought of shooting at your neighbors is bizarre. Maybe in the holler in Arkansas where you don't know the people from the next holler over and you don't want the revenuers finding your still. But not in any functioning rural area. Has country living really changed that much in 20 years?

We were glad if our neighbors wanted to walk on our land, and we assumed they didn't care if we walked on theirs. It wasn't a big deal. Of course, you didn't go walking on crop land when the crops were growing. But through pastures or wooded areas...it was no big deal. Of course, we also knew who all our neighbors were. When we were younger, my parents would keep an eye on their kids and they kept an eye on us. There was a community spirit. We weren't a bunch of strangers who happened to be living on adjoining properties. When we were older, the teenagers would go off on somebody's property and get drunk. People didn't shoot other people. People helped other people. If people were in need, they helped each other. If you found a stranger wandering across your property, the most likely reaction was to ask if he needed help. Not to go get a gun. That's not how things work in the country. I know I've become a city boy, but you guys are really making me pine for the country again. People aren't litigious and contentious jerks to each other in the country like you guys seem to think is standard in the world. Good grief!

I was just telling a story about living in a townhouse community...but the point was if he wasn't cleaning up after his dog, then perhaps that is what irritated the new owners to the point they asked him to stop walking his dog on their land. There had to be some work involved in identifying Mith as having walked his dog on land, and I can imagine that finding dog shit on their land was what set off their investigation.

i grew up in the country also, and I'm only saying if someone doesn't want you on their property, you respect that. We had many neighbors that didn't mind if we cut through their land, went sledding on their hill, played football on their flat land (I lived near the top of a hill, but on the hill nonetheless...sports sort of sucked on a slant), and did whatever. And like you, I and all the other kids in the neighborhood didn't walk through the fields during the growing season.

But there were some properties you just didn't go on; whether they were jerks or unfriendly or whatever. We knew the line where to walk and where not to walk, where to play and not play. I find it a bit hard to believe you didn't have someone in your community that you just avoided their lands, or didn't even speak with unless it was necessary.

I still have that country attitude...but I do respect folks who don't want me or others on their lands. Mith has explained he does too, as he said he won't go on the property anymore. This conversation is being pushed to nausea from both sides. Mith is fishing for folks who agree with him, and outside of you and somewhat me (did I miss anyone?), it's just not coming.

[Hornsby]

A townhouse community and a 100-acre wooded area are a wee bit different, methinks.

Surely I'm not the only guy here who grew up in the country. I know I didn't used to be. I know you guys are giving Mith a rough time, but still, the thought of shooting at your neighbors is bizarre. Maybe in the holler in Arkansas where you don't know the people from the next holler over and you don't want the revenuers finding your still. But not in any functioning rural area. Has country living really changed that much in 20 years?

We were glad if our neighbors wanted to walk on our land, and we assumed they didn't care if we walked on theirs. It wasn't a big deal. Of course, you didn't go walking on crop land when the crops were growing. But through pastures or wooded areas...it was no big deal. Of course, we also knew who all our neighbors were. When we were younger, my parents would keep an eye on their kids and they kept an eye on us. There was a community spirit. We weren't a bunch of strangers who happened to be living on adjoining properties. When we were older, the teenagers would go off on somebody's property and get drunk. People didn't shoot other people. People helped other people. If people were in need, they helped each other. If you found a stranger wandering across your property, the most likely reaction was to ask if he needed help. Not to go get a gun. That's not how things work in the country. I know I've become a city boy, but you guys are really making me pine for the country again. People aren't litigious and contentious jerks to each other in the country like you guys seem to think is standard in the world. Good grief!

I'm glad that you had an idyllic childhood, but things are different nowadays. I live in a fairly rural area, many farms, lots of woods and fields. I can assure you that pretty much every acre is posted with signs that say private property, no trespassing, no hunting, or all of the above. It IS a litigious society we live in today, and property owners are just protecting themselves legally for the most part. Some like Mith's neighbor, really don't want you on their land, other will oblige, IF you contact them first and ask their permission.

[Pogues]

Good grief, indeed. Mith doesn't know these neighbors, by his own admission. He didn't ask permission, by his own admission. That alone makes this different than the country situation Seitzer's describing. Having your dog shit on their property without cleaning it up (who the fuck does that?) is also different. But we all knew that, didn't we?

In fairness, Mith hasn't actually said he didn't clean up after his dog. It is an assumption I am making.

[Kevin Seitzer]

i grew up in the country also, and I'm only saying if someone doesn't want you on their property, you respect that. We had many neighbors that didn't mind if we cut through their land, went sledding on their hill, played football on their flat land (I lived near the top of a hill, but on the hill nonetheless...sports sort of sucked on a slant), and did whatever. And like you, I and all the other kids in the neighborhood didn't walk through the fields during the growing season.

But there were some properties you just didn't go on; whether they were jerks or unfriendly or whatever. We knew the line where to walk and where not to walk, where to play and not play. I find it a bit hard to believe you didn't have someone in your community that you just avoided their lands, or didn't even speak with unless it was necessary.

I still have that country attitude...but I do respect folks who don't want me or others on their lands. Mith has explained he does too, as he said he won't go on the property anymore. This conversation is being pushed to nausea from both sides. Mith is fishing for folks who agree with him, and outside of you and somewhat me (did I miss anyone?), it's just not coming.

I 100% agree with you on all of this.

I was just telling a story about living in a townhouse community...but the point was if he wasn't cleaning up after his dog, then perhaps that is what irritated the new owners to the point they asked him to stop walking his dog on their land. There had to be some work involved in identifying Mith as having walked his dog on land, and I can imagine that finding dog shit on their land was what set off their investigation.

Growing up in the country, no one ever picked up after their dogs. That was a new phenomenon I encountered when I moved to the city. In the city you are definitely being a bad neighbor if you don't pick up after your dog. In the country, picking up after your dog is just weird. No one does it. There are all sorts of wild animals that shit all over the place. Why would you care about dog shit versus coyote shit versus raccoon shit, etc., on a 100 freaking acres. Now, I'm not sure how rural the area is where Mith lives, but I know he's fairly far out of Pittsburgh, beyond what I would think of as the suburbs, and a 100-acre wooded area sounds pretty rural to me.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Edit II: I'm bugged by this. The neighborhood I grew up in was not rural but it was great. It was not contentious. It was not litigious. It was friendly as friendly can be. Why was that? Because we all knew each other. How did that come to be? We introduced one another and were respectful of each other. We respected other people's property and space by asking to use it, when appropriate. I walked home from school every day by walking on top of the fences that separated blocks. No one shot me, but then again I wasn't dropping feces in the space of someone I'd never met. AND I HAD MET ALL OF THEM. I knew them. I introduced myself (or my mom did for the two of us). We were a community. The girl across the street babysat me. The kids a block and a half away came over for lunch every Saturday. We had neighborhood block parties once a month. All the parents kept an eye on all the kids. The kids would gather at the creek, or on the street for football, or at the park. So, yeah, you don't have some sort of monopoly on community when you live in the fucking sticks.

If you think that was what I was saying then you completely missed the point.

[TranaGreg]

late to the party here but I want to throw my $0.02 in too!!!

key points for me:

-new ownership - the fact that it's the kids of the previous owner doesn't matter - if the new owner(s) want to change the use of the property that's their prerogative ... it's neither friendly or unfriendly.
-the use of the word "trespassing" - as stated, it's accurate if a bit harsh, esp. if they are concerned about the legality of the situation as has been suggested (Mith, you stated that if you slipped & broke your ankle you wouldn't sue - but of course the new owners don't have any insight into that, or what kind of person you are)

I've owned a rural property in the past (tho nowhere near as big). I didn't care if anyone walked their dog across it. But if it was something I became concerned about for whatever reason, I probably would have done something similar (tho in all honesty I probably wouldn't use the word trespassing the first time - if it needed a second notice tho I would).

bottom line - yeah, I agree that it's a bit unfriendly. But my experience is that it's a myth that all country people are wonderful, easy-going folk, so I'm not really surprised. I'd just find somewhere else to walk my dog.

[Erik]

So the most active thread in the Sports Bar is about dog shit. I guess that's appropriate.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Well, if you think that I was asserting that being contentious, litigious jerks is the standard for the world, then you missed the point as well. I'm pretty sure I got the gist of what you were saying, though.

No, that's not what I thought you were saying. You were saying (I think) that country people don't have anything special over city people in terms of being a neighborly community. And I would mostly agree with that. You have good communities in the city and bad communities in the country. I do think that the country lends itself a little more toward building that community, but by no means is it guaranteed in the country or unseen in the city. I think Pogues' description about how it works in the country was pretty apt, FWIW.

I was making the point that the standards or qualities of what makes a good neighbor and good community are very different in the country than they are in the city. Letting your dog shit on your neighbor's yard in the city is extremely rude. Letting your dog shit on your neighbor's "yard" or property in the country is a non sequitir. In the country you don't really have "yards" and to the extent that you do, they are thought of very differently, etc. Dogs often run loose, and so on.

And then I got angry about everybody bringing up all the legal crap. Which Hornsby probably correctly pointed out may have to do more with when I grew up than where I grew up and has less or nothing to do with country vs. city. Which could be correct. I don't know. I haven't lived in the country for 18 years.

And if I had to choose where I wanted to live, it's in the city rather than the country, for a variety of reasons. But there are things I do miss about the country. And perhaps about growing up 30 years ago, too. Though again, I'd prefer to live now rather than 30 years ago, and I imagine a lot of other people would, too.

[Gregg]

So the most active thread in the Sports Bar is about dog shit. I guess that's appropriate.

Score one for Mith.

[Kevin Seitzer]

you're really overreacting to the "legal crap."

Possibly.

I do think it makes a difference (practically, perhaps not legally) whether Mith knows the old neighbor well, which was never clear to me, and whether he knows the kids at all. If he's lived there for a while, presumably he would know the neighbor well and might have seen his kids grow up there. But we have no information on this, or if we did, I missed it. Or mithed it.

[Gregg]

If you re-read Mith's original post, the issue was with the word trespass and how the request was presented. By his own words he states that he "understands" that they don't want him on their land.

So for me this was an easy one. Mith was trespassing, they asked him to stop. I didn't read anything bad into their note. They are in their right to do so.

When I was a boy living in the farm community of Cedarburg Wisconsin we had a neighbor with about 3 acres of field and trees behind her house. Her name was Elsie Dammel. Her house looked haunted. She was old and witch like. She had a great willow tree at the back end of her property that we liked to climb. She would come out of her house with her broom and yell at us to get off her property. She scared the heck out of us and off we ran. Time would pass and we would do it all over again with the same results. It was her property and she did not want anybody on it. I did not agree with her and if I owned the property today, I would not chase kids off of it.

She lived for a very long time. Years later I found out that she really wasn't all that bad. A bit eccentric, but not the scary evil person that we thought she was. Today my memories of her chasing us off her land are sweet and bring a smile to my face.

It is easy to say it is where or when we lived. Maybe part of that is true. But mostly, I think people are people and some don't mind if we walk on their property and some do.

Today I live in a subdivision with a small lake. Our yard goes into the lake. From time to time kids will come on our property to catch frogs. They are welcome.They have never asked permission and I never ask them to leave. I like to fish off the bank on my neighbors property to the left. I asked them if I could and they said yes. Now I just fish whenever I want to. If they asked me to stop I would.


Oh and one neat thing, I am sitting under Elsie Dammel's floor lamp as I type this.