A restaurant in Stillwater, OK

[Sour Masher]

No, Gregg will likely get defensive in response to your self-righteousness.

And just because you know you are self-righteous doesn't make it okay that you are. If you know you are, why not try not to be? It isn't a label most people choose to embrace.

ETA: I happen to agree with your argument here, as my posts in this thread should show, but you have shifted from the nice, mellow fellow you mostly are here, to the self-righteous virtue-signaler you sometimes fall into. And to Gregg of all people. Disagree with him--I have on the implicit arguments of his questions in this thread, and I doubt he likes my approach either since he ignored most of my responses, but I have tried to not question his motives.

But you are calling out his motives and intent and he has a long history here of being a nice guy. You give the benefit of the doubt to Chance, who is also a nice guy, but who has far more right-winged opinions that someone with your beliefs should be more antagonistic to, but you are cordial with him (maybe you have not always, I forget). I just don't get taking it up a notch with Gregg of all people. I just think we are better off if we take the approach you take with Chance on this stuff. It leads to less defensiveness, which shuts things down. Your points were valid...I just don't know why you had to assume motives in this case, and why you sometimes fall back into thinking and saying you are morally superior to everyone else.

[GwynnInTheHall]

No, Gregg will likely get defensive in response to your self-righteousness.

If someone has NO Doubt about their beliefs, they shouldn't be or get defensive--they should be able to state them and support them in an articulate/cognitive manner-

Defensive is for people who know or are pretty sure they're wrong or at the very ;east are questioning the validity of their position. ala Trump supporters--where have all out Tboys gone? They can't hold up to the scrutiny so they ran away and hid, but they'll be back just in time to criticize the next Democrat who screws up. WE didn't run them off, their position was indefensible so they had to take a vacay until 45 is no longer.

[GwynnInTheHall]

And just because you know you are self-righteous doesn't make it okay that you are. If you know you are, why not try not to be? It isn't a label most people choose to embrace.

I know how I get and I make no apologies for who and how I am. My passion and commitment to what I believe are what endear me to those I hold close in my life, not so much others--I say all the time, people either love me or fucking despise me. Very few are indifferent.

FWIW, It's not about embracing it, it's about being honest about who I am.

[Sour Masher]

I know how I get and I make no apologies for who and how I am. My passion and commitment to what I believe are what endear me to those I hold close in my life, not so much others--I say all the time, people either love me or fucking despise me. Very few are indifferent.

FWIW, It's not about embracing it, it's about being honest about who I am.

I think that is a false binary. I like you most of the time, and think you get too self-righteous, morally superior prickish sometimes--very rarely lately, I must say. At no point do I love or despise you .

But I reiterate, I agreed with you on this, but you called me bringing up Mexico Joe, which is on the same petition for change and in the same town and owned by the same white dudes who are taking other people's culture and selling the stuff with questionable branding, as creating a strawman, which is clearly isn't. And you assumed that Gregg's sole or primary motive for digging around for a scenario where it wouldn't be clear cut as him looking for an excuse to excuse those guys in OK and the use of this term, even after he clarified he never uses terms like this himself.

You just seem to be itching for a fight with proxy Trumpers since all the real have all left the hot topic forums with his imminent ouster. But neither Gregg and certainly not myself are the droids you are looking for.

[GwynnInTheHall]

I think that is a false binary. I like you most of the time, and think you get too self-righteous, morally superior prickish sometimes--very rarely lately, I must say. At no point do I love or despise you .

But I reiterate, I agreed with you on this, but you called me bringing up Mexico Joe, which is on the same petition for change and in the same town and owned by the same white dudes who are taking other people's culture and selling the stuff with questionable branding, as creating a strawman, which is clearly isn't. And you assumed that Gregg's sole or primary motive for digging around for a scenario where it wouldn't be clear cut as him looking for an excuse to excuse those guys in OK and the use of this term, even after he clarified he never uses terms like this himself.

You just seem to be itching for a fight with proxy Trumpers since all the real have all left the hot topic forums with his imminent ouster. But neither Gregg and certainly not myself are the droids you are looking for.

I made a statement, a couple of posters disagreed. I explained my position stating that I believe Gregg had been more than adequately answed and that he either was looking for validation in the use of offensive verbiage OR he was not understanding those answers. So I made it more than clear. Not looking for a fight, just tired of willful ignorance from those I know are intelligent enough to know better

[GwynnInTheHall]

BTW Chance and I do have a history, but have found a mutual respect area in which to coexist.

[Gregg]

I have on the implicit arguments of his questions in this thread, and I doubt he likes my approach either since he ignored most of my responses, but I have tried to not question his motives.

I actually do like your approach. I have commented or asked questions on some of the things you have posted in this thread.

Me not commenting is not evidence of ignoring. Could be that I am in agreement with you or could be that if we are at odds I do not question your motive as well as respect your opinion (even if it differs).

[Gregg]

I know how I get and I make no apologies for who and how I am. My passion and commitment to what I believe are what endear me to those I hold close in my life, not so much others--I say all the time, people either love me or fucking despise me. Very few are indifferent.

FWIW, It's not about embracing it, it's about being honest about who I am.

It might be nice to add a pinch of grace and compassion to the passion and commitment.

[Ken]

GITH - Personally I misunderstood Gregg's questions initially, until Sour Masher put it best in post 44, summarizing: wouldn't it make the outsider white folks demanding change look like quite the virtue-signaling bunch of clueless whiners, appropriating outrage that is not theirs to have. Re-reading, it seemed like Gregg's not asking questions to determine if this the company name is acceptable but instead to ascertain if this is just white people acting inappropriately again (through virtue signaling in this case). If so that doesn't really align with your anger.

[GwynnInTheHall]

GITH - Personally I misunderstood Gregg's questions initially, until Sour Masher put it best in post 44, summarizing: wouldn't it make the outsider white folks demanding change look like quite the virtue-signaling bunch of clueless whiners, appropriating outrage that is not theirs to have. Re-reading, it seemed like Gregg's not asking questions to determine if this the company name is acceptable but instead to ascertain if this is just white people acting inappropriately again (through virtue signaling in this case). If so that doesn't really align with your anger.

I agree with you regarding the virtue signaling in that there is a definite difference between Eskimo and Mexico Joe's. And yes white folks have no dog in the hunt, but the reality of this is that change has to be brought about by white people as the system makes it almost impossible for POC to make it so.

Also, not angry, just frustrated that this conversation even has to happen anymore. It's a pretty simple concept. And in my circle of friends, been hashed and rehashed for a while now.

[GwynnInTheHall]

It might be nice to add a pinch of grace and compassion to the passion and commitment.

Grace and compassion comes in my first response, after that I expect to be understood.

[Ken]

Grace and compassion comes in my first response, after that I expect to be understood.

that's not how Grace works btw.

[Mithrandir]

I agree with you regarding the virtue signaling in that there is a definite difference between Eskimo and Mexico Joe's. And yes white folks have no dog in the hunt, but the reality of this is that change has to be brought about by white people as the system makes it almost impossible for POC to make it so.

Also, not angry, just frustrated that this conversation even has to happen anymore. It's a pretty simple concept. And in my circle of friends, been hashed and rehashed for a while now.

But at what point is something considered offensive? Staying within this conversation, how many people knew that Eskimo was considered a slur? And i mean people of all races and ethnicities. Did it just become a slur because a few people are offended? Wheres the line to cross? I legitimately do not know. But you can't go around deciding that certain terms are offensive because .01% of the offended group is mad about it.

Going back to my earlier example. Say I open a restaurant called, "Mith's Hunky Heaven". If a group of, say Irish folks, came to me and said I need to change the name as it's offensive towards Slovaks. I would not be compliant with their request and why should I be?

[Sour Masher]

But at what point is something considered offensive? Staying within this conversation, how many people knew that Eskimo was considered a slur? And i mean people of all races and ethnicities. Did it just become a slur because a few people are offended? Wheres the line to cross? I legitimately do not know. But you can't go around deciding that certain terms are offensive because .01% of the offended group is mad about it.

Is that the percentage of Inuits offended by the term based on evidence, or was that just a made up example? I don't know why we are dealing in hypotheticals here. Maybe because some want to find the boundaries of when it is okay to say, no, you know what, this is getting silly. But is this specific example a good test case for the boundary between offensive and overly sensitive? If so, where is the evidence? If not, why is anyone still pushing the other different discussion about where the line is in this specific test case?

I am admittedly not well informed on this issue. The E word is very clearly not the N word, but it does seem to be a label Inuits, on the whole, do not prefer. If you or anyone has evidence that this is like your Hungarian example and if you are saying only 1 in 1000 Inuits are offended by the name, I'd love to see that evidence. That is not my current understanding of things.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Is that the percentage of Inuits offended by the term based on evidence, or was that just a made up example? I don't know why we are dealing in hypotheticals here. Maybe because some want to find the boundaries of when it is okay to say, no, you know what, this is getting silly. But is this specific example a good test case for the boundary between offensive and overly sensitive? If so, where is the evidence? If not, why is anyone still pushing the other different discussion about where the line is in this specific test case?

I am admittedly not well informed on this issue. The E word is very clearly not the N word, but it does seem to be a label Inuits, on the whole, do not prefer. If you or anyone has evidence that this is like your Hungarian example and if you are saying only 1 in 1000 Inuits are offended by the name, I'd love to see that evidence. That is not my current understanding of things.

Then inform yourself it took me all of 30 seconds to find several examples of why some people are offended by the term Eskimo.

And offense shouldn't have to be quantified, it should be respected and resolved.

BTW, anyone branding a product in today's society should be diligent in the vetting process to avoid any offense.