So Amazon turns down NYC -

[The Feral Slasher]

It’s not as impractical as relying on cradle to grave patricianism like I surmise you favor.

Way to pull something out of your ass and deflect from the conversation. Well done

[nots]

The whole libertarian philosophy is impractical in the world today. Don't understand why that would make them support giving Amazon billions of dollars.

It’s not as impractical as relying on cradle to grave patricianism like I surmise you favor.

[Judge Jude]

just days before the news, Siena College announced results of a poll.

this question was:
"Do you approve or disapprove of the recently announced deal between Amazon and New York, which grants up to $3 billion in state and city incentives to Amazon in return for locating its corporate office in Queens, where it is projected to generate 25,000 jobs?"

Democrats approve, 56 pct to 37 pct
Republicans approve, 47-42
Independents approve, 64-29

Whites approve, 51-40
Blacks approve, 70-25
Hispanics approve, 81-17

I would just say that it clearly is worth it for a city or region to offer incentives for a massive project like this.
but how much is too much?
I haven't seen a thoughtful analysis of this deal anywhere - has anyone else?

[The Feral Slasher]

In a vacuum, I don’t think a Libertarian would support that. We don’t live in a vacuum though, so sometimes slightly less bad is the best you can hope for. If you are looking for irrational, impractical at the expense of actually getting something accomplished, Rand Paul is your guy.

The whole libertarian philosophy is impractical in the world today. Don't understand why that would make them support giving Amazon billions of dollars.

[nots]

Sure, that's a much more difficult question to answer isn't it ? Might as well try to solve world hunger. What I was hoping to accomplish was to point out the ridiculousness in a libertarian supporting government payments to corporations. Why would a libertarian support that ? I think that is a huge problem with the libertarian philosophy in the age where huge corporations actually can make laws, control aspects of the government, and yield monopolistic powers. Those are all thing that a libertarian should object to, yet apparently Amazon is a beacon of capitalism and freedom.

In a vacuum, I don’t think a Libertarian would support that. We don’t live in a vacuum though, so sometimes slightly less bad is the best you can hope for. If you are looking for irrational, impractical Libertarianism at the expense of actually getting something accomplished, Rand Paul is your guy.

[The Feral Slasher]

Sure, that's a much more difficult question to answer isn't it ? Might as well try to solve world hunger. What I was hoping to accomplish was to point out the ridiculousness in a libertarian supporting government payments to corporations. Why would a libertarian support that ? I think that is a huge problem with the libertarian philosophy in the age where huge corporations actually can make laws, control aspects of the government, and yield monopolistic powers. Those are all thing that a libertarian should object to, yet apparently Amazon is a beacon of capitalism and freedom.

ignoring the power that corporations have over our government is pretty much the exact opposite of what libertarians profess, yet Baldgriff is totally on board with it.

[The Feral Slasher]

So, what’s the answer— more government regulation to prevent it? That isn’t exactly a Libertarian position either.

Sure, that's a much more difficult question to answer isn't it ? Might as well try to solve world hunger. What I was hoping to accomplish was to point out the ridiculousness in a libertarian supporting government payments to corporations. Why would a libertarian support that ? I think that is a huge problem with the libertarian philosophy in the age where huge corporations actually can make laws, control aspects of the government, and yield monopolistic powers. Those are all thing that a libertarian should object to, yet apparently Amazon is a beacon of capitalism and freedom.

[nots]

Show me a single leftist supporting corporate loopholes.

I can show you lots of leftists (probably you if I had the gumption to go back thru these threads) bitching about Trump dropping the corporate tax rate, which as shown by Amazon means next to nothing.

[DMT]

I really agree with your last paragraph. The fact Amazon doesn’t pay any tax for the second year in a row speaks to the loophole and deduction problem, not to the corporate tax rate that has been bitched about ad nauseum by the left. Tax code clearly needs revision and the number of corporate loopholes needs lessened.

Show me a single leftist supporting corporate loopholes.

[nots]

Can't you see how Amazon has the market power to extort money by offering jobs to wherever they decide to locate ? Sure it might make sense for an particular location, but why should our government be bidding for jobs ? Again, the exact opposite of what a libertarian would believe in.

So, what’s the answer— more government regulation to prevent it? That isn’t exactly a Libertarian position either.

[The Feral Slasher]

Giving the tax break as a draw to raise economic capital in your city is much different, in that the government makes an agreement to waive taxes in order to get the longer term gain which include things like - tax revenue, higher property values, more jobs, higher paying jobs, which draw people to your area and also provides a means for fixing currently broken public transit systems, increasing teacher pay (or more teachers). That 3 billion dollar waiver is not just good for the "rich guy" it is good for the people in the area and the government coffers.

My first reaction about the 11billion dollar profit being tax free - honestly - I was frustrated by that. However, I dont know all of the details related to that situation. If it is merely a situation where accountants found loopholes to avoid a tax - then Im frustrated because this would indicate a serious flaw in our tax code.

There is a difference between the Amazon tax break situation that was proposed by NYC and the other Amazon situation which is more likely taking advantage of the tax code. The first is a business transaction - getting something short term to get something long term. The second is just plain taking advantage of a tax code - If you want him to pay his taxes on the 11billion dollars - stop creating these "deductions and write-off's".

Dude, if you want to be a libertarian, fine, but you should actually be one. Huge corporations playing cities against each other to receive benefits not available to other smaller corporations is pretty much the exact opposite of what Libertarians profess. The end result of what you are supporting is the government giving huge amounts of money to Amazon. Textbook libertarianism, lol

Can't you see how Amazon has the market power to extort money by offering jobs to wherever they decide to locate ? Sure it might make sense for an particular location, but why should our government be bidding for jobs ? Again, the exact opposite of what a libertarian would believe in.

[nots]

Giving the tax break as a draw to raise economic capital in your city is much different, in that the government makes an agreement to waive taxes in order to get the longer term gain which include things like - tax revenue, higher property values, more jobs, higher paying jobs, which draw people to your area and also provides a means for fixing currently broken public transit systems, increasing teacher pay (or more teachers). That 3 billion dollar waiver is not just good for the "rich guy" it is good for the people in the area and the government coffers.

My first reaction about the 11billion dollar profit being tax free - honestly - I was frustrated by that. However, I dont know all of the details related to that situation. If it is merely a situation where accountants found loopholes to avoid a tax - then Im frustrated because this would indicate a serious flaw in our tax code.

There is a difference between the Amazon tax break situation that was proposed by NYC and the other Amazon situation which is more likely taking advantage of the tax code.

The first is a business transaction - getting something short term to get something long term (Capitalism at its best - market freedom). The second is just plain taking advantage of a tax code - If you want him to pay his taxes on the 11billion dollars - stop creating these "deductions and write-off's".

I really agree with your last paragraph. The fact Amazon doesn’t pay any tax for the second year in a row speaks to the loophole and deduction problem, not to the corporate tax rate that has been bitched about ad nauseum by the left. Tax code clearly needs revision and the number of corporate loopholes needs lessened.

[baldgriff]

So is not giving Amazon a huge tax break "taking money from the rich guy" ? Seems more like the rich guy trying to make his own rules. Remind me, how much income tax did Amazon pay on their $11 billion dollars in profit ?

Giving the tax break as a draw to raise economic capital in your city is much different, in that the government makes an agreement to waive taxes in order to get the longer term gain which include things like - tax revenue, higher property values, more jobs, higher paying jobs, which draw people to your area and also provides a means for fixing currently broken public transit systems, increasing teacher pay (or more teachers). That 3 billion dollar waiver is not just good for the "rich guy" it is good for the people in the area and the government coffers.

My first reaction about the 11billion dollar profit being tax free - honestly - I was frustrated by that. However, I dont know all of the details related to that situation. If it is merely a situation where accountants found loopholes to avoid a tax - then Im frustrated because this would indicate a serious flaw in our tax code.

There is a difference between the Amazon tax break situation that was proposed by NYC and the other Amazon situation which is more likely taking advantage of the tax code.

The first is a business transaction - getting something short term to get something long term (Capitalism at its best - market freedom). A transaction by the way that would appear on the face of it to enhance the lives of tens of thousands of people. That is government working for the people - isnt it?


The second is likely just plain taking advantage of a tax code - If you want him to pay his taxes on the 11billion dollars - stop creating these "deductions and write-off's".

[nots]

Because it exactly the opposite of what libertarians profess. But I guess attacking left wingers and socialist is more your thing

Your snark aside, what do you propose for Amazon? They are going to put their HQ somewhere. I would think it would be up to the Representatives of each city to put their best foot forward in the hopes of trying to lure the company to their area so as to have have access to the jobs Amazon would bring.
On a side note note: you take a lot of shots at Libertarians for some reason without revealing anything about your own positions. I gather you are anti-military adventurism (good on you!) and I seem to remember you being anti-Hillary as well but otherwise just seem to take pot shots from the cheap seats. Why don’t you enlighten us as to your world view?

[The Feral Slasher]

Why would I care about a city providing a tax break to a corporation in order to create more business opportunities and bring in more revenue than the break they are providing. Seems to be good a reasonably good business decision - right?

What I find laughable is that AOC was out there saying that the city should use the 3billion dollars (a tax break - not real money) to repair their trains and pay teachers. She doesnt seem to understand the very basic concept that a tax break is not real money - but rather is likely a way to lure 10 billion of corporate revenue, providing jobs for people and allowing the individuals to move their life forward.

Giving 3billion to get more than double that - appears to be a good business decision - especially when you can use the 7billion to fix your public transit and pay your teachers.

Because it exactly the opposite of what libertarians profess. But I guess attacking left wingers and socialist is more your thing