Election 2020

[Sour Masher]

I agree. Change is scary, and people who benefit from the current system like to make it even scarier.

This reminds me of all the fear-mongering Hearst did about Hemp, or just about any outgoing product does to scare people from abandoning it for something new. Milk for non-animal milk comes to mind too, as does fake meat stuff. I saw a few articles about how men will grow big boobs if they eat Impossible Whoppers after their sales spiked.

[nullnor]

in translators in french impossible translates to unbearable. le unbearable burger.

[The Feral Slasher]

I saw a few articles about how men will grow big boobs if they eat Impossible Whoppers after their sales spiked.

Well that explains a lot ! Thanks

[Sour Masher]

Well that explains a lot ! Thanks

I heard universal health care will make us all pansies too. Real Americans tough it out. All doctors are just after our money anyway! Just put some dirt on it and it will be fine!

ETA: Did you know socialism gives you cancer? Everyone has it in Western Europe, but the mainstream media doesn't tell you these things.

[The Feral Slasher]

I heard universal health care will make us all pansies too. Real Americans tough it out. All doctors are just after our money anyway! Just put some dirt on it and it will be fine!

Will that help with my boobs ?

[Sour Masher]

Will that help with my boobs ?

Nope, but all them soy boys over in Europe have them--big as Dolly Parton, eating the stuff my food eats. It is all part of the government's plan to emasculate us. First they take our guns, then they take our meat and give us all boobs and then we gotta all call each other them or they instead of he and she, as the good lord made us. I can send you the pamphlets if you wanna know the truth. The government wants to control everything, take all the freedoms that make America great. They wanna turn this country into a pinko paradise with breadlines of big boobed soy boys wearing dresses. Trump is rooting out that deep state, though. If we give him another term or two, he is gonna get them all out. All the baby eating pedophiles and big brother, nanny state, take from the working and give to the lazy commie bastards. He is gonna take down the Jewish run media and banks too. And get rid of all them coming over here taking what I work for, what's mine. All the libtards are gonna be crying come 2020.

[Teenwolf]

I think Sour Masher is underestimating the sheer stupidity of people who would rather pay $10K for childbirth, or $100K for cancer, etc, rather than adopting a system like Canada's, or any other developed and moral nation.

My family grew up similarly to Sour Masher's, hard working, poor single mom with dead beat stepdad who didn't work, but we had a lot of health issues. My mom had a hysterectomy at 29, two heart procedures, and has had lupus for over a decade, retired on disability at 55, among other issues. If she had medical debt from those surgeries, she would be bankrupt or dead from inability to pursue care.

Same for me. After having my gall bladder removed, I was in and out of hospitals and doctor offices for 12 years until I started to figure out my health issues. So many blood tests, stool tests, physical exams, MRI's, x-rays, ultrasounds, endoscopies, colonoscopies, etc. All free, at whichever hospital i choose. If I didn't have access to care, or if I were bankrupted from the lab rat lifestyle, i probably would have killed myself if I were still dealing with the chronic pain. I would have stopped seeking help and given up.

The system you have is immoral. The folks who don't want it to change don't see the immorality of it because they're insulated from these health care issues, like FS says. They got a good job, decent coverage, so who cares about the less fortunate?

I also cannot fathom being enslaved in a job because of the health care it provides. I think that M4A would be a huge boon to entrepreneurs able to pursue their passions, especially if paired with elimination of student and medical debt.

[DMT]

No question it's immoral, but be careful you might be summoning BG back to explain to us why HC is a privilege not a right. The media plays a role as well, pushing the fear-monguering that despite being the richest country the world has ever known, we can't afford to provide coverage to everyone.

[Sour Masher]

No question it's immoral, but be careful you might be summoning BG back to explain to us why HC is a privilege not a right. The media plays a role as well, pushing the fear-monguering that despite being the richest country the world has ever known, we can't afford to provide coverage to everyone.

Owning guns is a right, health care is a privilege. If the all mighty, all knowing founding fathers wanted us all to have health care they would have put it in the sacred text. Survival of the fittest. Worst comes to worse, and you can't take the pain or become too much of a burden on your family or society, well, that us what the gun is for.

[In the Corn]

I find this really fascinating. Do you think if the Dems and Republicans met in the middle and compromised that the results would be beneficial for most Americans ? Is the inability to compromise what is leading to the decline of the Republic ?

In my estimation, yes, absolutely it the issue. People become accustom to incremental change. Look at same-sex marriage, 15 years ago people where in an uproar, heck, even at the point Barack Obama's opinion hadn't evolved. Let some state start marrying same-sex couples, and introduce it into society, now it's old hat.

When we find a compromise and give people a chance to see that some of this change could be good, we all win. Look at the ACA, as that seems to be the current standard bearer in this discussion.

People love that pre-existing conditions are taken care of with the ACA.
People love that their is an option for everyone.
People are more aware of exactly what health care cost, as they have been exposed via news the cost for those who are low-income.
People are starting to see that the squeeze is really the lower-middle class that doesn't qualify for Medicare or a state program.

Now the issue, politically is the constant push-pull of the repeal Republicans and the M4A Democrats. Neither is realistic. People want there to be options, but can't fathom the cost of M4A. We need to tweak the ACA. As someone who buys through the exchange, it's become garbage, as the truly only "affordable" plans are exactly what is was set up to negate, the Catastrophic Plan.

Make some tweaks to the ACA, explain it better, make some incremental changes that everyone can get behind.

[DMT]

Maybe if Republicans hadn't spent so much effort trying to dismantle ACA, your incremental plan might have worked. But, their true intentions (screwing everyone but themselves and their wealthy donors) have been laid bare for all to see.

[B-Fly]

I guess what I found interesting was the complete lack of context regarding the U.S. system vs other countries and as you noted the self interest and total lack of consideration for the people without insurance or those with crappy insurance. I think people who grow up in middle/upper family structures, go to college, get good jobs and have good insurance have no idea about how half or more of the country struggle with health insurance. Or even understand that most Americans don't live an upper class lifestyle like they do.

So as a person who grew up in a middle/upper-class family structure, went to college, has gotten good jobs and has good insurance for myself and my family, I would like to quibble with your generalization, lol. I think there are a lot of people in my boat who (1) don't think Bernie Sanders is crazy, (2) understand how privileged we are and how much of a struggle it is for a huge portion of the American population to secure a living wage and decent health insurance and care, and (3) understand how much greater the disparities between haves and have nots are in the US versus Europe, Canada and much of the "first world".

From a personal perspective, I am and have always been happy to pay higher taxes and to support compassionate government programs whether they directly benefit me and my family or not. And while Medicare for All may not be optimal for my family given the great health coverage we get through my wife's teachers' union negotiated collective bargaining agreement, I will absolutely support it if the details of the plan can be worked out to ensure all Americans have access to quality health insurance and health care.

My concern about the Sanders agenda isn't really that it's radical. In global or even historical context, I don't think it's particularly radical at all. My concern is more that much of the agenda may not be politically achievable given the American political system and the state of our politics, if Sanders can win. And more importantly, that it may be too easy for the GOP to scare voters into thinking that Sanders's agenda and ideology is too radical and risky and "anti-American". My biggest worry is about losing to Trump. And I go back and forth on who is best positioned to win the potentially available voters in the potentially swingable states.

[The Feral Slasher]

So as a person who grew up in a middle/upper-class family structure, went to college, has gotten good jobs and has good insurance for myself and my family, I would like to quibble with your generalization, lol. I think there are a lot of people in my boat who (1) don't think Bernie Sanders is crazy, (2) understand how privileged we are and how much of a struggle it is for a huge portion of the American population to secure a living wage and decent health insurance and care, and (3) understand how much greater the disparities between haves and have nots are in the US versus Europe, Canada and much of the "first world".

From a personal perspective, I am and have always been happy to pay higher taxes and to support compassionate government programs whether they directly benefit me and my family or not. And while Medicare for All may not be optimal for my family given the great health coverage we get through my wife's teachers' union negotiated collective bargaining agreement, I will absolutely support it if the details of the plan can be worked out to ensure all Americans have access to quality health insurance and health care.

My concern about the Sanders agenda isn't really that it's radical. In global or even historical context, I don't think it's particularly radical at all. My concern is more that much of the agenda may not be politically achievable given the American political system and the state of our politics, if Sanders can win. And more importantly, that it may be too easy for the GOP to scare voters into thinking that Sanders's agenda and ideology is too radical and risky and "anti-American". My biggest worry is about losing to Trump. And I go back and forth on who is best positioned to win the potentially available voters in the potentially swingable states.

Yeah, i probably didn't explain my experience very well, or extrapolated it to a larger group than I should have. And I certainly didn't mean to come across as judgemental, because the people I was visiting are amazingly kind and generous, as are many college educated folks, lol. Mostly I was surprised at how far left M4A is considered. I just never understood how big of a hurdle it was. And since it is considered such a huge change it requires a very strong rationale, and I was considering whether the circumstances and environment that some people are in make it difficult to see the need for change.

[nots]

I am actually beginning to see a path for Bloomberg to win the nomination. Let’s say Sanders win 3 of the first 4 primaries with Biden getting an underwhelming win in SC. Buttigieg, Warren et al are cooked. The DNC (and especially the media) recoil at the thought of Sanders being the nominee and begin to put their finger on the scale again. Media has a lot of ‘articles’ portraying Sanders in a negative light. Bloomberg continues climbing in the polls and by (or right after) Super Tuesday, Obama (certainly no friend of Sanders and certainly not against a big money guy like Bloomberg) comes out with an endorsement for Mayor Mike. Bloomberg cruises to win after that and takes the nomination.
Certainly key not the likeliest of scenarios by any stretch, but for the first time, I can see it’s possible. Anyone with me on this at least being plausible?

[B-Fly]

I am actually beginning to see a path for Bloomberg to win the nomination. Let’s say Sanders win 3 of the first 4 primaries with Biden getting an underwhelming win in SC. Buttigieg, Warren et al are cooked. The DNC (and especially the media) recoil at the thought of Sanders being the nominee and begin to put their finger on the scale again. Media has a lot of ‘articles’ portraying Sanders in a negative light. Bloomberg continues climbing in the polls and by (or right after) Super Tuesday, Obama (certainly no friend of Sanders and certainly not against a big money guy like Bloomberg) comes out with an endorsement for Mayor Mike. Bloomberg cruises to win after that and takes the nomination.
Certainly key not the likeliest of scenarios by any stretch, but for the first time, I can see it’s possible. Anyone with me on this at least being plausible?

Possible, yes. Plausible, I think you'd have to articulate a clearer case for factoring out Biden than "with Biden getting an underwhelming win in SC". Biden still has a ton more polling strength than Bloomberg overall and particularly with Black voters, and I think there is no way Obama would weigh in for Bloomberg with Biden still viable. If Obama makes an endorsement at all, it wouldn't be until it's clear that there's only one person left who can stave off a Sanders nomination. But yes, I do share your sense that Obama is sufficiently averse to Sanders that he would consider directly endorsing another candidate in the primaries. I suspect, however, that the most likely recipient of that endorsement would be still be Biden.