Election 2020

[GwynnInTheHall]

If all this comes to happen and Sanders becomes President, which of Sanders main talking points will come to fruition in your opinion?

First and foremost, he'll bring integrity back to the office which will go a long way to repairing the damage that's been done under Trump.

On a lesser, but still important front, he'll use executive orders to undo all the EOs Trump's used to undermine so mach that had been accomplished.

The MAIN issues he touts that might get done are Universal healthcare and Tuition free secondary education. Mostly because there are already programs in place he can expand on. If both Houses go Blue, he'll achieve both. If not, he'll get pieces passed though not as comprehensive as if the Dems control it all.

What do you think he'll get done?

[The Feral Slasher]

Sure, but that wasn't my point. He just happened to be the most recent messenger. I cited Karl Rove on the same point before trying to get reassurances, and I don't respect Karl Rove at all. I do worry they may be have some truth in this particular argument, even if they are making it for less than altruistic reasons. I have heard Sanders be effective at messaging what he wants to do for and give the American people. I have not heard him really address as extensively how he won't take and destroy what his opponents say he will. I was hoping TW or someone else would be able to speak to that or point me to his arguments against those claims. I fear if he does not have an effective argument to combat those claims, the fear-mongering puts him in a tough spot to win. After all, what good is free college and $15 minimum wage if the economy is destroyed and all the jobs move overseas?

To be clear, I'm not making that argument, but I am arguing he needs to be able to address that argument. Has he? What does he say? What can he say that will convince voters who fear his policies would destroy the economy and double their taxes? I will feel better if someone can point me to those arguments, if he has made them.

This is really just absurd. Paying a $15 minimum wage and free college destroying the economy ? Anyone who believes that is already voting for Donald Trump.

[GwynnInTheHall]

This is really just absurd. Paying a $15 minimum wage and free college destroying the economy ? Anyone who believes that is already voting for Donald Trump.

Agreed.

I used to think people were essentially good, thoughtful and looked out for each other. The past 20 years has taught me--those people are the exception, self centered, greedy, fuck the world I'm getting mine kind of folks are the majority.

[Sour Masher]

Agreed.

I used to think people were essentially good, thoughtful and looked out for each other. The past 20 years has taught me--those people are the exception, self centered, greedy, fuck the world I'm getting mine kind of folks are the majority.

If that is the case, how does that reconcile with your statement above that Bernie will beat Trump? I think I agree with you that the majority are the "I'm getting mine" crowd, but if that is true, Trump beats Bernie, right? Because the majority are "getting theres" right now. Yes, there are many being left behind, as always. But it is silly to try to spin the economy and job market right now is "bad." Lots of folks perceive themselves to be better off than a few years ago financially.

What I hope for is that Sanders can reach some of those voters--who are maybe not antagonistic to the plight of others, but rank it less than their own well-being. He needs a good chunk of those folks. Yes, some of them will vote for him, because they hate Trump. But if he doesn't assuage some of their concerns that they will be worse off economically under him than Trump, I fear they will stay home.

IDK. Maybe he doesn't need them. Maybe he can tap enough of the vast number of non-voters who have always felt unrepresented by politicians and thus stayed home. Maybe. But I hope he still reaches to the middle. I hope he doesn't make HRC's mistake. She decided the left-of-her voters would fall in line to vote for her even if she ignored them. She was wrong, at least in key states, and it cost her the election.

ETA: What I was look for, specifically from the most politically obsessed, Bernie-focused poster here (or anyone, but I figure if TW didn't have an answer, no one would), was some assurances he would do this. But what I'm getting so far is the sort of rhetoric I saw from HRC voters--a confidence I sincerely hope is rightly placed, but fear is not. Bottom line, if Bernie beats Trump, I'm one happy camper. Right now, though, I'm trying to scrutinize each candidate's weaknesses and what they are or can do to address them. I guess Bernie is off limits to that discussion, as any such questions are seen as direct attacks trying to undermine his chances at the nomination. I guess I'm just "concern-trolling".

[The Feral Slasher]

If that is the case, how does that reconcile with your statement above that Bernie will beat Trump? I think I agree with you that the majority are the "I'm getting mine" crowd, but if that is true, Trump beats Bernie, right? Because the majority are "getting theres" right now. What I hope for is that Sanders can reach some of those voters--who are maybe not antagonistic to the plight of others, but rank it less than their own well-being. He needs a good chunk of those folks. Yes, some of them will vote for him, because they hate Trump. But if he doesn't assuage some of their concerns that they will be worse off economically under him than Trump, I fear they will stay home. Maybe he doesn't need them. Maybe he can tap enough of the vast number of non-voters who have always felt unrepresented by politicians and thus stayed home. Maybe. But I hope he still reaches to the middle. I hope he doesn't make HRC's mistake. She decided the left-of-her voters would fall in line to vote for her even if she ignored them. She was wrong, at least in key states, and it cost her the election.

Totally wrong. The majority are getting nothing and struggling to survive

[Sour Masher]

Totally wrong. The majority are getting nothing and struggling to survive

Where are the stats to back up the claim that over 50% of Americans are "getting nothing and struggling to survive," especially relative to where they were 5 years ago? That seems hyperbolic to say the least. And all the matters in terms of who wins is the percentage of voters who feel they are doing well. Lots of the most disenfranchised do not vote. I already addressed above that maybe Bernie can get enough from that vast untapped population. I hope so, because it is becoming clear that no one has any evidence to share that Bernie has and can reach to the middle to get some of those "affluent liberals" that make up the power structure of the DNC, but whose votes apparently are not needed for Bernie to win.

[The Feral Slasher]

Where are the stats to back up the claim that over 50% of Americans are "getting nothing and struggling to survive," especially relative to where they were 5 years ago? That seems hyperbolic to say the least. And all the matters in terms of who wins is the percentage of voters who feel they are doing well. Lots of the most disenfranchised do not vote. I already addressed above that maybe Bernie can get enough from that vast untapped population. I hope so, because it is becoming clear that no one has any evidence to share that Bernie has and can reach to the middle to get some of those "affluent liberals" that make up the power structure of the DNC, but whose votes apparently are not needed for Bernie to win.

Ok i will look up some stats. Not sure about that your claim.that the "i am getting mine" crowd is a majority.

[fuhrdog]

First and foremost, he'll bring integrity back to the office which will go a long way to repairing the damage that's been done under Trump.

On a lesser, but still important front, he'll use executive orders to undo all the EOs Trump's used to undermine so mach that had been accomplished.

The MAIN issues he touts that might get done are Universal healthcare and Tuition free secondary education. Mostly because there are already programs in place he can expand on. If both Houses go Blue, he'll achieve both. If not, he'll get pieces passed though not as comprehensive as if the Dems control it all.

What do you think he'll get done?

Thanks for the reasonable response, don't get that here usually when Bernie is discussed. My question was in 100% good faith. I will be voting for whoever runs against Trump for the record. Bringing back the integrity of the office would be a great and welcome change from the train wreck we have now. My biggest issue with Sanders and Warren has always been that I doubt that the majority of their talking points have any chance of actually happening. I lean closer to the middle but like I said, I will be voting for whoever is running against the great Satan.

[GwynnInTheHall]

Ok i will look up some stats. Not sure about that your claim.that the "i am getting mine" crowd is a majority.

That was me and what I meant was--Those in a position to influence, choose their own personal comfort over the greater good.

The Poor are already disenfranchised from any perceptible position of influence and those who seek to keep it that way do so through voter suppression among other things.

Sanders is a great motivator and he doesn't have to convince many more to help him win.

That's the key.

I think he'll get it done cuz if not--

[The Feral Slasher]

If that is the case, how does that reconcile with your statement above that Bernie will beat Trump? I think I agree with you that the majority are the "I'm getting mine" crowd, but if that is true, Trump beats Bernie, right? Because the majority are "getting theres" right now. Yes, there are many being left behind, as always. But it is silly to try to spin the economy and job market right now is "bad." Lots of folks perceive themselves to be better off than a few years ago financially.

What I hope for is that Sanders can reach some of those voters--who are maybe not antagonistic to the plight of others, but rank it less than their own well-being. He needs a good chunk of those folks. Yes, some of them will vote for him, because they hate Trump. But if he doesn't assuage some of their concerns that they will be worse off economically under him than Trump, I fear they will stay home.

IDK. Maybe he doesn't need them. Maybe he can tap enough of the vast number of non-voters who have always felt unrepresented by politicians and thus stayed home. Maybe. But I hope he still reaches to the middle. I hope he doesn't make HRC's mistake. She decided the left-of-her voters would fall in line to vote for her even if she ignored them. She was wrong, at least in key states, and it cost her the election.

ETA: What I was look for, specifically from the most politically obsessed, Bernie-focused poster here (or anyone, but I figure if TW didn't have an answer, no one would), was some assurances he would do this. But what I'm getting so far is the sort of rhetoric I saw from HRC voters--a confidence I sincerely hope is rightly placed, but fear is not. Bottom line, if Bernie beats Trump, I'm one happy camper. Right now, though, I'm trying to scrutinize each candidate's weaknesses and what they are or can do to address them. I guess Bernie is off limits to that discussion, as any such questions are seen as direct attacks trying to undermine his chances at the nomination. I guess I'm just "concern-trolling".

so I'm happy to look up statistics, but what it sounds like you are saying is that the majority of people will be better off under Trump than they would be if Bernie won the presidency. This seems to me to be not at all accurate, so maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

[Sour Masher]

so I'm happy to look up statistics, but what it sounds like you are saying is that the majority of people will be better off under Trump than they would be if Bernie won the presidency. This seems to me to be not at all accurate, so maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

It should be clear by now I loathe Trump. Every moment he is president is a national travesty. All this "concern trolling" is coming from a leaguemate of mine I like a lot. I text him all the time since he joined the league two years ago. He is hispanic, has had family negatively affected by Trump, and thinks Trump is a jerk and should get off twitter. But in my recent trade of Bauer to him, I learned he has come around to thinking Trump is MAGA, putting America first, and is making America prosper. The economy and his own sense of doing well right now has flipped him. I got off the subject, because I did not want to insult him, but it scared me. This is a likeable, nice fellow who seemed worried about a "super lefty" ruining the economy and his prosperity. It got me thinking of Sanders' messaging, and that he needs to not only talk about free college to a parent who alrewdy is blessed with his son having dozens of full ride offers for baseball. It got me thinking he needs to express to this guy and those like him, the things he wants to give others will not be taken from them and mess up the economy at the same time.

Or not. Idk. I just want Trump to lose, and have discovered a few people I know seem to think Sanders will take from them, and I wanted to feel better by finding out if Sanders has an answer for that. Clearly, his fervent supporters here think his path to victory lies in not reaching out to those who are doing well in this economy. It is reaching out to those who are not. FS, you said that is the majorty. I do not think the majority of .voters feel worse off economically right now (my own loathing of Trump is not based on my personal financial status at the moment, and those I work with, mostly Bernie supporters, do not hate Trump for economic reasons, or like Bernie because they think he will help them financially, well,.except my students; they want free college, they support Benie for moral reasons, but as GITH said, mamy voters vote for themselves, not to help others), but maybe he can reach those left behind that do not historicslly vote. I was hoping he had a strategy to reach my leaguemate, but I am getting he and those like him are not worth reaching out to, they will vote Trump no matter, what, and Sanders has this in the bag without them. I am unconvinced of that claim, but hope it is accurate.

[The Feral Slasher]

It should be clear by now I loathe Trump. Every moment he is president is a national travesty. All this "concern trolling" is coming from a leaguemate of mine I like a lot. I text him all the time since he joined the league two years ago. He is hispanic, has had family negatively affected by Trump, and thinks Trump is a jerk and should get off twitter. But in my recent trade of Bauer to him, I learned he has come around to thinking Trump is MAGA, putting America first, and is making America prosper. The economy and his own sense of doing well right now has flipped him. I got off the subject, because I did not want to insult him, but it scared me. This is a likeable, nice fellow who seemed worried about a "super lefty" ruining the economy and his prosperity. It got me thinking of Sanders' messaging, and that he needs to not only talk about free college to a parent who alrewdy is blessed with his son having dozens of full ride offers for baseball. It got me thinking he needs to express to this guy and those like him, the things he wants to give others will not be taken from them and mess up the economy at the same time.

Or not. Idk. I just want Trump to lose, and have discovered a few people I know seem to think Sanders will take from them, and I wanted to feel better by finding out if Sanders has an answer for that. Clearly, his fervent supporters here think his path to victory lies in not reaching out to those who are doing well in this economy. It is reaching out to those who are not. FS, you said that is the majorty. I do not think the majority of .voters feel worse off economically right now (my own loathing of Trump is not based on my personal financial status at the moment, and those I work with, mostly Bernie supporters, do not hate Trump for economic reasons, or like Bernie because they think he will help them financially, well,.except my students; they want free college, they support Benie for moral reasons, but as GITH said, mamy voters vote for themselves, not to help others), but maybe he can reach those left behind that do not historicslly vote. I was hoping he had a strategy to reach my leaguemate, but I am getting he and those like him are not worth reaching out to, they will vote Trump no matter, what, and Sanders has this in the bag without them. I am unconvinced of that claim, but hope it is accurate.

There are worries we can have about all the Dem candidates. I think Bernie has a strong argument that the great majority of Americans would be much better off if he is president and can implement his policies. I'm certainly not changing my position based on a few anecdotes. I could provide thousands of them that would counter your friends, but that's not really worthwhile.

[The Feral Slasher]

There are worries we can have about all the Dem candidates. I think Bernie has a strong argument that the great majority of Americans would be much better off if he is president and can implement his policies. I'm certainly not changing my position based on a few anecdotes. I could provide thousands of them that would counter your friends, but that's not really worthwhile.

As an example u could look at that douchebag Jim Messina's twiiter where he urges people to contribute to a go fund me page for one of his friends who had cancer. Thanks Jim !! Go fund me is a great healthcare plan for America

[Sour Masher]

There are worries we can have about all the Dem candidates. I think Bernie has a strong argument that the great majority of Americans would be much better off if he is president and can implement his policies. I'm certainly not changing my position based on a few anecdotes. I could provide thousands of them that would counter your friends, but that's not really worthwhile.

I am not trying to get you to waiver in your support for Bernie at all. I was fishing for assurances that may not be there. That may be okay. Maybe you guys are right that Sanders is best aligned to beat Trump, because of how he inspires the disenfranchised. I am confused by TW bringing up Biden, who I have consistently said is a deeply flawed candidate. I have expressed concerns about Warren and Mayer Pete as well, the other front runners. But Sanders is the one surging now, so my concerns are with him at the moment--he looks like he may be the guy. It is a perplexing deflection to say, what about how these other candidates could lose to Trump. I agree, they all can, and that is scary!

But Sanders is scary too, and it is weird to me that Sanders supporters are perfectly willing to address how the other candidates could lose to Trump, but are not willing to address how Sanders could. I think he could. I wanted to know why you guys are so certain he will not. I thought it might be because I missed some talking points and strategies to make sure he does not lose the middle voters that ignore or dismiss Trump's racism, misogyny, crassness, etc, because they care more about the person in the mirror who may be doing well under Trump. Apparently, you guys do not think he can win those voters, and/or does not need those voters. Or maybe you think anything he might do to win them over would only serve to alienate his base. That may be true. Obviously, what Sanders has going for him above all others is the consistency and integrity of his platform. I know he would not and should not lose that, or he loses everything. I was not trying to suggest he should shift ideologically or that any of his supporters should stop supporting him. But I was hoping for assurances that he could sell his agenda and message to a group of voters I fear he may need. Clearly, you guys do not think he needs those voters, or do not think there is a way to win them over without compromising his platform. That reality is a bit scary to me.

[GwynnInTheHall]

This is what you're missing SM.

WHY did HRC lose the election in 2016? Because people fucking HATED her. Not only the GOP leaning voters, but quite a few left leaning voters.

It wasn't about policy or who could do better in the office, it was--Trumps kind of a dick, but Hillary is Evil. Hate her, Hate the way she speaks and on and on.

Sanders won't have to bear that cross.

Once he has Trump on the stage with him, he'll shred him, make him look foolish and do it without looking like an entitles asshole.

THAT'S the difference between then and now.