There is no proof that God exists

[DMT]

I am not really sure what you mean.

Your comments about science/medicine being started with a foundation in belief. Fresno opened with that quote.

[Gregg]

By "believing" do you mean "wondering" ? Because I can certainly test out ideas that I'm wondering about without "believing" that they happen to be true.

No sir. I can wonder if I can cure cancer and would not try as I do not believe I can. Someone else can believe they can cure cancer and tries.

[DMT]

In other words, I don't think anyone would argue that there wasn't a lot of overlap between religion and science/medicine in it's earliest forms. That doesn't mean they're actually related.

[Gregg]

Your comments about science/medicine being started with a foundation in belief. Fresno opened with that quote.

Yes both science and religion had their first roots in belief.

He said God, I would take exception to that. I would not take exception to inserting religion.

[Gregg]

I think you're talking about hope and self-confidence and their influence on inspiration/motivation, more so than "belief" as I understand the word.

I am not talking about hope or self confidence. Man certainly has a heightened development of these. Does one have self confidence if they do not believe in themselves?

Regarding your comment on science; we have to at the very least believe what we are observing and believe that an experiment will have some outcome even if we do not know what that is.

[Gregg]

Thank you gentlemen for the discussion.

I have to leave on a business trip and will try to check in later tonight. I have a 5 hour drive to Corporate and dinner tonight.

[B-Fly]

Do you for one minute think there is an animal in the world that we cannot eliminate if we wanted to.

Yes, I don't think we could wholly eliminate insects even if we wanted to.

[B-Fly]

I am not talking about hope or self confidence. Man certainly has a heightened development of these. Does one have self confidence if they do not believe in themselves?

Regarding your comment on science; we have to at the very least believe what we are observing and believe that an experiment will have some outcome even if we do not know what that is.

Okay, but you're rendering the term "believe" so generic that (1) it definitely contradicts your statement that humans are the only animals that can "believe" (how are they not "believing" what they are observing), and (2) I'm not sure what point you're trying to establish relating to the thread topic re: proof of the existence of G-d.

[Fresno Bob]

No sir. First I requested that we take religion out of it. You then put it back in and told me it was unfair to the rules and science of reason. Getting back to science. There is no testing, no replicability, no peer review, if someone does not start out with the belief that the thing that gets all this treatment was possible in the first place.

There is no science, no medicine, no technology without someone first believing.

sure, but then they go and test that belief using the scientific method.

[griswold]

I've been reading this thread with a very open mind as I was born and raised a Catholic for 38 years and then "converted" to Christianity in 2002.

Raised the kids that way and we have always been very involved in the church since then. I've been a Jr/Sr High Sunday school teacher/helper since 2002 and still enjoy helping the youth.

My "proof" has always been when I really need "help" (guidance/understanding), God has been there for me. You can call coincidence....but it's way too random for that.

Thanks for a great discussion...I'll join in when appropriate.

[TranaGreg]

Nope. Man is the authority over the world.

We have the ability to destroy the world. I am told many times over. No one can stop us except ourselves.

The mightiest creatures we have found ways to subdue. In some cases make extinct. Do you for one minute think there is an animal in the world that we cannot eliminate if we wanted to.

It is lucky for us that we mutated to the top of the food chain. It is the natural order of things if I am to believe what most have stated here.

I disagree. None of this makes us the authority of the world. Man is simply a tenant here - a very powerful one, but still a tenant. We have no special claim to anything other than a physically bigger/more evolved brain which allows us to make tools that give us abilities other creatures do not. That's all.

If the defining criteria is the ability to destroy the world, then I'd say the authority of this world is the sun. Maybe the Egyptians had it right!

[Fresno Bob]

I've been reading this thread with a very open mind as I was born and raised a Catholic for 38 years and then "converted" to Christianity in 2002.

Raised the kids that way and we have always been very involved in the church since then. I've been a Jr/Sr High Sunday school teacher/helper since 2002 and still enjoy helping the youth.

My "proof" has always been when I really need "help" (guidance/understanding), God has been there for me. You can call coincidence....but it's way too random for that.

Thanks for a great discussion...I'll join in when appropriate.

Two questions if you don't mind.

1.) I'm unclear on the "conversion" from Catholicism to Christianity. Is it just a rejection of Papist hierarchy, or something different. I see the Catholic Church as the oldest, most visible, most organized sect of Christianity. Am I missing something?

2.) I'm unclear on your "proof", what does it mean when you say "God has been there for me". Do you feel that God has actually spoken to you, or is it that God has placed a person with knowledge or empathy into your path when you needed support or a bump into a new direction?

[griswold]

Two questions if you don't mind.

1.) I'm unclear on the "conversion" from Catholicism to Christianity. Is it just a rejection of Papist hierarchy, or something different. I see the Catholic Church as the oldest, most visible, most organized sect of Christianity. Am I missing something?

2.) I'm unclear on your "proof", what does it mean when you say "God has been there for me". Do you feel that God has actually spoken to you, or is it that God has placed a person with knowledge or empathy into your path when you needed support or a bump into a new direction?

Good questions....

1. Well, basically, my wife was raised Methodist and I was Catholic....we felt we needed one church with similar beliefs. We have a Christian church very close and decided to go there. I wasn't rejecting anything per se. I just felt Christianity was a better path for our beliefs.

2. I believe God placed a person with knowledge in my path to help guide me or confirm my decision for life's struggles.

[Steve 2.0]

Good questions....

1. Well, basically, my wife was raised Methodist and I was Catholic....we felt we needed one church with similar beliefs. We have a Christian church very close and decided to go there. I wasn't rejecting anything per se. I just felt Christianity was a better path for our beliefs.

2. I believe God placed a person with knowledge in my path to help guide me or confirm my decision for life's struggles.

1. I'm still not sure I follow your first answer.

2. That's a coincidence or having friends. Edit to say: Ken is right, this is out of line and I apologize to you, griz, and to the participants of the discussion.


(Yes, after all this time of hiding it from the people on this board, I'm an atheist.)

[Ken]

2. That's a coincidence or having friends.

When we switch from discussing what we each personally believe over to trying to tell someone that their experiences are not valid, it seems like we're headed in the wrong direction. It seems pretty naive to suggest that you know more about his personal experience than he does, but what do I know?