Economic, taxes, and tariffs discussion

[Sour Masher]

NO! I would tax them at the same rate as any other earned income source. I dont care how you make the $100 bucks - you pay X% on each and every $100 unit no matter how it is made/earned.

Oh, ok, that is consistent of you. I misunderstood, because you said "do away with capital gains taxes." After reading nots link, let me know if you are still for making capital gains taxes equal with income taxes. And if not, if you recognize that it keeping them at different rates is unfair to poorer folks who make most or all of their money from working rather than as passive income from investments.

[Fresno Bob]

I just read the exemption is now over $11M. I don’t see any problem with folks paying a tax above that amount.

and a married couple EACH get that 11M exemption

[nots]

and a married couple EACH get that 11M exemption

I usually try and stay on top of tax law changes but I missed this one for sure,

[baldgriff]

Oh, ok, that is consistent of you. I misunderstood, because you said "do away with capital gains taxes." After reading nots link, let me know if you are still for making capital gains taxes equal with income taxes. And if not, if you recognize that it keeping them at different rates is unfair to poorer folks who make most or all of their money from working rather than as passive income from investments.

I guess I will say this - I dont believe that charging the lower tax on capital gains is the driver for investing money. The driver for investing money is to make more money - period. Giving someone a "tax break" because they invested wisely is simply a bonus. Im looking to simplify the process - X% of $100 is Y. People pay Y on every $100 unit of earned/made.

X% is X% is X%..... there is no "moral" judgement in the equation - its just math.

[onejayhawk]

Repeating this nonsense doesn't make it any more credible.

You just say that because you're one of the rich ones.

Highest marginal tax rate under Eisenhower was 91%. How did we ever survive that Commie!?

JFK was a supply-sider.

What do the 1% pay now ?

About half. https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/13/top-...ome-taxes.html

hey, I've always thought that I'm undertaxed, the fact that Trump managed to figure out how to fuck house-wealthy liberal coasters while lowering taxes is the most masterfully crafty thing he's done

The fact that I can deduct mortgage and equity line interest astounds me, the fact that I could "rob the feds" to pay my state and local governments I've always found delightful

That's almost respectful. I think everyone pays too much, but reductions would come out of social programs with militant defenders.

In my mind, a dollar earned is a dollar earned.... who cares how it is earned. I think I said that before and that I would do away with capital gains taxes.

The first thing they taught in my tax class was that defining income is difficult. When the marginal rate was 91% there was a lot of incentive to find ways to compensate executives without raising their cash salary. The tax code got fat unsuccessfully closing the loopholes.

J

[Sour Masher]

Also, nots brought up the best case scenario for revenue and how it still falls short of the progressive wish list. Another area I'd want to see more revenue is not tax exempting religions. Religious organizations gain massive tax advantages that I don't think they should gain. As much as some of you distrust the government's use of funds, I'd rather they have it to help people in need, then religions that attach strings to their help, or use funds to protect child abusers instead, or fund their legal attacks on critics who point out they bilk people out of their money in the name of ridding the world of thetans. I should not be required to support religions in this country via their tax exempt status. It is religious welfare. A de facto subsidy that favors religions over other non-profits.

The folks who say they don't think it is fair that a mother of 4 making minimum wage isn't paying any taxes never seem to have a problem with the fact that all these religious institutions don't pay taxes.

ETA: I'm aware of the SC ruling on this, but I never bought the notion that you needed to not tax religious institutions to maintain separate between church and state. I'm open to being convinced, but right now, I don't buy the Exception clause argument or the free expression argument.

[gcstomp]

What kind of money, I wonder, is passed through tax exempt status via houses of worship? The mega churches afford their leaders mansions and private jets. In my area there are massive churches every 1/4 mile. And a cult like Scientology which has tons of real estate holdings, is tax exempt. Imagine if key to balancing budget is right there. Maybe with some fluffing with a sin fed tax on legal pot dispensaries. And I think nots was still padding budget with military, you could cut it to double the next biggest military budget in world, china spend is 150 bn a yr, (which is more than double next biggest budget) so US at 300 bn a year would be a big cut.

[Sour Masher]

What kind of money, I wonder, is passed through tax exempt status via houses of worship? The mega churches afford their leaders mansions and private jets. In my area there are massive churches every 1/4 mile. And a cult like Scientology which has tons of real estate holdings, is tax exempt. Imagine if key to balancing budget is right there. Maybe with some fluffing with a sin fed tax on legal pot dispensaries. And I think nots was still padding budget with military, you could cut it to double the next biggest military budget in world, china spend is 150 bn a yr, (which is more than double next biggest budget) so US at 300 bn a year would be a big cut.

Also I have no idea how guys like Fallwell get away with openly endorsing Trump, when tax except entities are prohibited from political campaigning. He isn't the only one either. And yeah, we are talking 10s of billions in lost revenue each year, easy. I agree with the military budget, ideally, being that low, but nots was being generous with his figures. Even that would be incredibly hard for any candidate to pull off. it isn't like my taxing religion idea would ever pass either. A lot of this is dreaming, but we should be pushing this with our representatives.

These are all just examples of how many folks, I think, focus on the wrong expenditures and tax issues to get mad about. Worrying about how unfair it is for working parents below the poverty line not paying taxes, buying into the myth of Regan's welfare queens, when we have such a bloated defense budget, and corporate welfare programs, tax policies favoring the ultra rich, and religious scammers not paying taxes, just seems really misguided to me.

[DMT]

Our defense budget is so sickening, billions unaccounted for, outspending the next ten countries. Until this is addressed, the rest of this discussion is moot. This is the main reason we can't afford to take care of our poor and sick and elderly and children.

Indeed, Congress appropriated a record amount—$716 billion—for the DoD in the current fiscal year of 2019. That was up $24 billion from fiscal year 2018’s $692 billion, which itself was up $6 billion from fiscal year 2017’s $686 billion. Such largesse is what drives US military spending higher than the next ten highest-spending countries combined, added Spinney. Meanwhile, the closest thing to a full-scale war the United States is currently fighting is in Afghanistan, where approximately 15,000 US troops are deployed—only 2.8 percent as many as were in Vietnam at the height of that war.

The DoD’s accounting practices appear to be an intentional effort to avoid accountability, says Armstrong. “A lot of the plugs—not all, but a substantial portion—are used to force general-ledger receipts to agree with the general budget reports, so what’s in the budget reports is basically left up to people’s imagination,” Armstrong says, adding, “Did the DoD improperly spend funds from one appropriated purpose on another? Who can tell?”

https://www.thenation.com/article/pentagon-audit-budget-fraud/

And Trump of course lied about cutting spending and authorized $160 BILLION increase over the next two years. But the House overwhelmingly passed it so it's not like the Democrats are much better on this front.

https://dod.defense.gov/News/SpecialReports/Budget2019.aspx

[baldgriff]

Also, nots brought up the best case scenario for revenue and how it still falls short of the progressive wish list. Another area I'd want to see more revenue is not tax exempting religions. Religious organizations gain massive tax advantages that I don't think they should gain. As much as some of you distrust the government's use of funds, I'd rather they have it to help people in need, then religions that attach strings to their help, or use funds to protect child abusers instead, or fund their legal attacks on critics who point out they bilk people out of their money in the name of ridding the world of thetans. I should not be required to support religions in this country via their tax exempt status. It is religious welfare. A de facto subsidy that favors religions over other non-profits.

The folks who say they don't think it is fair that a mother of 4 making minimum wage isn't paying any taxes never seem to have a problem with the fact that all these religious institutions don't pay taxes.

ETA: I'm aware of the SC ruling on this, but I never bought the notion that you needed to not tax religious institutions to maintain separate between church and state. I'm open to being convinced, but right now, I don't but the Exception clause argument or the free expression argument.

I think the biggest problem you will have is defining what is actually considered “INCOME” for the church. As they are a Non-Profit Organization, they generally rely on tax deductible donations from individual parties. While I agree that there are “religious organizations” that gain massive tax advantages – these are the same tax advantages that allow churches that have no more than 100 members to actually be break even propositions. If you take those tax advantages away, I truly believe all you will see is the Corporatization of the Church on a MUCH larger scale.

Additionally, I think it is important to separate out the difference between the “individual” church itself vs. the denomination (for lack of a better word). Using you concerns about protecting child abusers – the denomination (Catholic Church) should be held accountable for the crimes that they perpetrated and allowed to knowingly continue. However, St X’s church with a membership of 150 people in downtown Crossover Territory, USA – should not have to pay for the sins of their uncles just because they are a Catholic Church. They themselves may be the actual food bank in that town.

There is a bunch to unpack when you start talking about taking away the Churches non-profit status. Just for sake of consistency, if you were to remove that non-profit status, you would have to remove it from the Christian, Bhuddist, Scientology, Muslim, Jehovah’s Witness, Jewish and other “Churches/Religious Organizations”. So you’re not just talking about the tax deductible contributions to the Catholic Church, you are talking about tax deductible contributions to “Churches” of all various beliefs and denominations. Sorry, I just don’t see that one happening.

[baldgriff]

Our defense budget is so sickening, billions unaccounted for, outspending the next ten countries. Until this is addressed, the rest of this discussion is moot. This is the main reason we can't afford to take care of our poor and sick and elderly and children.

This is something that we agree on whole-heartedly. We should have a defense budget for our "defense" not the defense of other countries or efforts to spread freedom and democracy by the gun.

[nots]

This is something that we agree on whole-heartedly. We should have a defense budget for our "defense" not the defense of other countries or efforts to spread freedom and democracy by the gun.

Exactly.
Wouldn’t hurt a bit to close a couple dozen of our military bases around the world either.

[DMT]

Exactly.
Wouldn’t hurt a bit to close a couple dozen of our military bases around the world either.

And not build new ones where they're unwanted.

[baldgriff]

Exactly.
Wouldn’t hurt a bit to close a couple dozen of our military bases around the world either.

Totally Agree. We should not and can not continue to be the police for the World.

[DMT]

Totally Agree. We should not and can not continue to be the police for the World.

It's a military empire.