Economic, taxes, and tariffs discussion

[DMT]

Well since you quoted me (with graph) in posts 379 and 383, yeah I am going to assume you were talking to me. Funny that.

And posts 371-3 came right after this.

Yep - but hey if you are richer than someone else the government should be able to take a larger percentage of your money than the other guy. Its fair and equitable.

So in this morning's discussion someone else made a comment mocking the tax code for being progressive. I'm sorry I have to spell this out.

[nots]

And posts 371-3 came right after this.



So in this morning's discussion someone else made a comment mocking the tax code for being progressive. I'm sorry I have to spell this out.

And I’m sorry I had to refute your 91% nonsense.

[Sour Masher]

Yep - but hey if you are richer than someone else the government should be able to take a larger percentage of your money than the other guy. Its fair and equitable.

You focus a lot on the notion it is fair for everyone to pay the same tax rate. However, I haven't heard your thoughts on how sales tax is regressive, because poorer people spend a grater percentage of their net income on goods and services. Because of that, if you compare the effective sales tax rate of rich and poor as a relation of total income and wealth, it is very regressive, with poor people paying a much, much higher percentage. Also, many rich people make much less than poor people and other rich people, because their income comes not from working but for capital gains. Is it fair that the capital gains and corporate tax rates are now so much lower than the income tax rates. Should those who make their money off of things like stocks and real estate pay at a lower rate than plumbers and doctors etc?

[nots]

You focus a lot on the notion it is fair for everyone to pay the same tax rate. However, I haven't heard your thoughts on how sales tax is regressive, because poorer people spend a grater percentage of their net income on goods and services. Because of that, if you compare the effective sales tax rate of rich and poor as a relation of total income and wealth, it is very regressive, with poor people paying a much, much higher percentage. Also, many rich people make much less than poor people and other rich people, because their income comes not from working but for capital gains. Is it fair that the capital gains and corporate tax rates are now so much lower than the income tax rates. Should those who make their money off of things like stocks and real estate pay at a lower rate than plumbers and doctors etc?

Are you advocating for doing away with state sales tax?

[baldgriff]

I was responding (and referring) to BG but way to assume it's all about you.

What is really silly is creating a tax code that "requires" people of certain incomes to pay specific amounts of money - then creates all sorts of exemptions and deductions for these same people to continue lowering their tax responsibility. I mean lets be really honest its really some kind of shell game that makes it easier for the wealthy to loophole away their responsibility to pay the taxes that you believe they should be obligated to pay.

Raising the tax rates will do little if you dont get rid of all of the loopholes, exemptions and deductions for these "uber-rich" or "upper class" group. They will hire another accountant to find them more ways NOT to pay the taxes.

Just simplify the whole mess! I mean really the only people benefitting from most of these loopholes, exemptions and deductions are the "uber/upper class". Why do we do this?? We set these "progressive" tax levels - and then let the very rich circumvent them. Does it make us feel better, because we have this progressive tax code - and then get to bitch about the rich people taking advantage of all of the various tax breaks that the poor and middle class dont get to use to protect their wealth?

You may think its non-sense. I just hate the cat and mouse game of "I pay a good accountant to save me from paying the government".

[Fresno Bob]

If you think that was Trump being vindictive, I'll give it to you.

That said, I love the irony of Democrats objecting to taxes based on wealth.

J

hey, I've always thought that I'm undertaxed, the fact that Trump managed to figure out how to fuck house-wealthy liberal coasters while lowering taxes is the most masterfully crafty thing he's done

The fact that I can deduct mortgage and equity line interest astounds me, the fact that I could "rob the feds" to pay my state and local governments I've always found delightful

[The Feral Slasher]

What is really silly is creating a tax code that "requires" people of certain incomes to pay specific amounts of money - then creates all sorts of exemptions and deductions for these same people to continue lowering their tax responsibility. I mean lets be really honest its really some kind of shell game that makes it easier for the wealthy to loophole away their responsibility to pay the taxes that you believe they should be obligated to pay.

Raising the tax rates will do little if you dont get rid of all of the loopholes, exemptions and deductions for these "uber-rich" or "upper class" group. They will hire another accountant to find them more ways NOT to pay the taxes.

Just simplify the whole mess! I mean really the only people benefitting from most of these loopholes, exemptions and deductions are the "uber/upper class". Why do we do this?? We set these "progressive" tax levels - and then let the very rich circumvent them. Does it make us feel better, because we have this progressive tax code - and then get to bitch about the rich people taking advantage of all of the various tax breaks that the poor and middle class dont get to use to protect their wealth?

You may think its non-sense. I just hate the cat and mouse game of "I pay a good accountant to save me from paying the government".

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd say the people who can benefit from these loopholes are the same people who got them put in there in the first place. Those uber wealthy people who shouldn't have to pay so much tax

[baldgriff]

You focus a lot on the notion it is fair for everyone to pay the same tax rate. However, I haven't heard your thoughts on how sales tax is regressive, because poorer people spend a grater percentage of their net income on goods and services. Because of that, if you compare the effective sales tax rate of rich and poor as a relation of total income and wealth, it is very regressive, with poor people paying a much, much higher percentage. Also, many rich people make much less than poor people and other rich people, because their income comes not from working but for capital gains. Is it fair that the capital gains and corporate tax rates are now so much lower than the income tax rates. Should those who make their money off of things like stocks and real estate pay at a lower rate than plumbers and doctors etc?

All earned income should be taxed at the same rate. I dont care how you "earned/made" it - tax it all at the same level. "Capital Gains" is money earned - by wise investing, but why tax it differently. Dividends and Interest are also an income stream - tax it likewise.

If you "earn/make" $100 bucks - however you "earn/make" - it all should be taxed the same. One exception - Inheritance. The government should not get any slice of the pie when someone dies and passes money on to whomever they choose too.

[gcstomp]

bald, does it matter to you that what you are saying, same flat tax period, on someone who works a starvation wage, or someone who hasnt visited all his 30 houses this year, simply does not work? Or are you using the word "should" to mean, hey, we should all just be nice to each other in the world and then there will be no more wars.
Geez, and the inheritance pov you old is exactly opposite of what it should be unless we are just openly advocating for the serf/lord model.

[baldgriff]

bald, does it matter to you that what you are saying, same flat tax period, on someone who works a starvation wage, or someone who hasnt visited all his 30 houses this year, simply does not work? Or are you using the word "should" to mean, hey, we should all just be nice to each other in the world and then there will be no more wars.
Geez, and the inheritance pov you old is exactly opposite of what it should be unless we are just openly advocating for the serf/lord model.

I dont believe in slavery. Please tell me why the government should get more than what the person owed in taxes at the point he/she died?

[DMT]

All earned income should be taxed at the same rate. I dont care how you "earned/made" it - tax it all at the same level. "Capital Gains" is money earned - by wise investing, but why tax it differently. Dividends and Interest are also an income stream - tax it likewise.

If you "earn/make" $100 bucks - however you "earn/make" - it all should be taxed the same. One exception - Inheritance. The government should not get any slice of the pie when someone dies and passes money on to whomever they choose too.

This is pure nonsense. But I agree with eliminating all the loopholes and going after the tax-shelters. It's fucking idiocy how we let so much money be stored off-shore.

[baldgriff]

This is pure nonsense. But I agree with eliminating all the loopholes and going after the tax-shelters. It's fucking idiocy how we let so much money be stored off-shore.

Just curious - why do think certain types of income should be taxed differently? Why should it matter how the money was earned, as to what tax rate is placed on it?

[nots]

All earned income should be taxed at the same rate. I dont care how you "earned/made" it - tax it all at the same level. "Capital Gains" is money earned - by wise investing, but why tax it differently. Dividends and Interest are also an income stream - tax it likewise.

If you "earn/make" $100 bhttps://taxfoundation.org/us-taxpayers-face-6th-highest-top-marginal-capital-gains-tax-rate-oecd/ucks - however you "earn/make" - it all should be taxed the same. One exception - Inheritance. The government should not get any slice of the pie when someone dies and passes money on to whomever they choose too.

Capital gains taxes exist in much of the world. The US has the 6th highest in the world. If we taxed it all as ordinary income, we would be the 2nd highest in the world. Capital gains taxes exist to spur investment. I don’t believe it’s prudent to walk away from that and I am positive it isn’t ‘nonsense’.

https://taxfoundation.org/us-taxpayers-face-6th-highest-top-marginal-capital-gains-tax-rate-oecd/

[DMT]

Just curious - why do think certain types of income should be taxed differently? Why should it matter how the money was earned, as to what tax rate is placed on it?

Because labor should not be devalued relative to capital even more than it already is.

[baldgriff]

Capital gains taxes exist in much of the world. The US has the 6th highest in the world. If we taxed it all as ordinary income, we would be the 2nd highest in the world. Capital gains taxes exist to spur investment. I don’t believe it’s prudent to walk away from that and I am positive it isn’t ‘nonsense’.
https://taxfoundation.org/us-taxpaye...tax-rate-oecd/

Interesting perspective and one for me to consider. However, it does tend to promote the "rich pay less" perspective which is so prevalent.