#___ingwhileblack

[Teenwolf]

Heh, what did I say that was not calm, "dude"? There's all this talk of hypersensitivity and inability to remain calm. After seeing it over and over it comes across as deflecting. I've found that those who regularly say "calm the fuck down", are typically the least calm in a conversation, surprisingly enough. Just my 2c.

You dont think jumping to conclusions that I'm labelling Gregg as supporting unfettered gun access for suspect groups would be enough to ask that you calm down? You dont have to use all caps to sound conspiratorial. I'm just asking you to read me straight up. I have no ill intent here.

[Teenwolf]

...my statement again was to separate the white supremacy thing from the argument is that the stockpiling of guns is likely not grounds for being arrested. Unless of course the guns are illegal in some nature. If they aren't illegal then any person has a right to own as many guns as they want - just like they can own as many cars, houses, bottles of wine, boxes of cereal or anything else? Why, because our Constitution grants us the right to own and bear arms - here in the United States of America.

I think you already answered my question. If the stockpiling of weapons was pursued in concert with planning an act of terrorism, I believe that would be a crime.

It's just nuts that the US stopped tracking white nationalist groups to focus on Muslim extremists when right wing extremists kill 3x more than Muslim extremists in the US.

[baldgriff]

First the stuff about me calling others racist is played out. You failed in your search to find me labelling posters racist, despite your assertion, and later changing the goal posts to "well... you IMPLY folks are racist, and that's maybe even worse"... The closest you found was me apologizing for saying "Republicans have issues with racism", when I more specifically meant "the Republican party as a whole has major issues with racism"... so that's your big A-HA proof that I'm so terrible? An apology, where you still cant find me singling anybody out? In a thread where right wingers insisted I was wrong about Roseanne's racism and I was later proven right? That's your proof? Give it up!

If a white supremacist group (or gang as Gregg notes) were to stockpile guns with the intent of committing domestic terrorism, should they have their guns restricted? Not simply stockpiling, but if there's proven evil intent, does that not qualify a group for arrest, with the gun acquisition not being the crime itself, but the proof of intent to inflict terror? Serious question, as I believe that's closer to the case with my UK example.

To address your "First stuff" - I believe Im not the only one that has called you out on your masterful ability to insinuate and call people some pretty vile stuff without actually coming out and saying it.. Serious question - DO YOU REALLY THINK I ACTUALLY CELEBRATE WHITE SUPREMACISTS? IF NO - then why post that crap other than to insinuate that I align myself with them (at which point I am now a white supremacist - bigot - racist).

As to your "serious question"
If there is an actual criminal action that occurs the people that commit the crime should be held responsible. The mere "stockpiling" of guns is not a criminal offense. So you cant arrest anyone solely on the grounds that they have multiple guns. The right to own and bear arms is protected for all citizens in our country - so you have to have something else. You have to separate the two things. The ownership of multiple guns is an indicator that a person likes guns - it is not necessarily an indicator that a person will misuse the gun and intentionally harm people with it.

[Ken]

You dont think jumping to conclusions that I'm labelling Gregg as supporting unfettered gun access for suspect groups would be enough to ask that you calm down? You dont have to use all caps to sound conspiratorial. I'm just asking you to read me straight up. I have no ill intent here.

Sorry but arguing a different viewpoint has nothing to do with being calm. And while I didn't "jump to conclusions", even if I had, you have no reason to believe I'm not "calm". In fact I'm quite calm. It's always funny to me when someone says something like "calm the fuck down" - a clear notion based on the language used that they themselves are in no way calm.

Regardless, posting things like "So you want unregulated gun access" is nonsensical.

It's equivalent to me posting something ridiculous like, "So Teenwolf, does it bring a smile to your face when you attend funerals?". It's completely off topic and petty and ridiculous unless the individual you are directing it to had actually given some kind of indication that they took the viewpoint that you are attributing to them.

Obviously no one here has that viewpoint. No one has suggested completely unregulated guns. Why bring it up other than to play the straw man game and beat down that opposing side that doesn't actually exist? And when you start playing that game it just takes away and distracts from your actual, valid arguments.

[baldgriff]

It's just nuts that the US stopped tracking white nationalist groups to focus on Muslim extremists when right wing extremists kill 3x more than Muslim extremists in the US.

I would agree that our Law Enforcement Agencies probably should increase the focus on white nationalist groups. Keep in mind, when someone flies planes into your most densely populated cities there may be a reaction that puts a more focused target on that group (whether you like it or not).

[Teenwolf]

Sorry but arguing a different viewpoint has nothing to do with being calm. And while I didn't "jump to conclusions", even if I had, you have no reason to believe I'm not "calm". In fact I'm quite calm. It's always funny to me when someone says something like "calm the fuck down" - a clear notion based on the language used that they themselves are in no way calm.

Regardless, posting things like "So you want unregulated gun access" is nonsensical.

It's equivalent to me posting something ridiculous like, "So Teenwolf, does it bring a smile to your face when you attend funerals?". It's completely off topic and petty and ridiculous unless the individual you are directing it to had actually given some kind of indication that they took the viewpoint that you are attributing to them.

Obviously no one here has that viewpoint. No one has suggested completely unregulated guns. Why bring it up other than to play the straw man game and beat down that opposing side that doesn't actually exist? And when you start playing that game it just takes away and distracts from your actual, valid arguments.

I cant ask a question without you assuming it's a straw man argument. I'm trying to find where to draw the line, because the US has no line! 97% of Americans support some kind of background check for gun owners. I'm not going to assume anybody here is in the 3%. Instead, I assume we all have high risk groups we would like to restrict gun access to. I assume most right wingers would not support Muslims who are also on the terror watch list to have unlimited gun access. Not a huge leap, yet they remain a "protected" group... But where is the line? Severly mentally incapable, including schizophrenics are obvious to restrict access (yet somehow their gun rights are also protected, "pesky 2nd amendment", eh?)... Spousal abusers carry much higher likelihood to kill their partners. Right wing extremists? KKK members?

I'm asking legitimate questions. Not seeking to label anybody anything.

[Teenwolf]

I would agree that our Law Enforcement Agencies probably should increase the focus on white nationalist groups. Keep in mind, when someone flies planes into your most densely populated cities there may be a reaction that puts a more focused target on that group (whether you like it or not).

Glad we're on the same track.

Trump chose to end funding for groups that tracked hate groups and organizations that looked to convert vulnerable youth away from right wing extremism. That was intentional protection for "his base". I also believe he's a moron with little interest in governing, and could easily have been pursued by other wackos in Trump's circle without his awareness (rare that I give him credit, if you consider extreme stupidity to his credit)

I posted the Anti Defamation League study that showed the death tolls since 9/11, and right wing extremists are crushing the Muslims since then, something like 174-60, a 3-1 ratio. I'm glad that you see the need to focus on both!

[DMT]

I would agree that our Law Enforcement Agencies probably should increase the focus on white nationalist groups. Keep in mind, when someone flies planes into your most densely populated cities there may be a reaction that puts a more focused target on that group (whether you like it or not).

So we targeted Saudi nationals? Oh right, never mind. And funny how McVeigh's bombing and murdering 168 people never gets mentioned for domestic terrorist profiling. It's only excused when it's non-white people who are targeted.

[B-Fly]

As to your "serious question"
If there is an actual criminal action that occurs the people that commit the crime should be held responsible. The mere "stockpiling" of guns is not a criminal offense. So you cant arrest anyone solely on the grounds that they have multiple guns. The right to own and bear arms is protected for all citizens in our country - so you have to have something else. You have to separate the two things. The ownership of multiple guns is an indicator that a person likes guns - it is not necessarily an indicator that a person will misuse the gun and intentionally harm people with it.

Actually, it depends. Criminal conspiracy or attempt statutes allow arrests to be made prior to the commission of an illegal act.


Conspiracy

A conspiracy occurs when two or more people agree to commit an illegal act and take some step toward its completion. Conspiracy is an inchoate crime because it does not require that the illegal act actually have been completed. For instance, a group of individuals can be convicted of conspiracy to commit burglary even if the actual burglary never happens. Conspiracy is also unique in that, unlike attempt, a defendant can be charged with both conspiracy to commit a crime, and the crime itself if the crime is completed.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/inchoate-crimes/conspiracy/

Attempt

Attempt is defined as an inchoate crime where an individual, with the intent to actually commit a crime, undertakes an action in furtherance of that crime, but ultimately fails. Attempt is therefore comprised of three elements: (1) intent to commit a crime; (2) conduct that constitutes a substantial step toward completing the crime and (3) a failure to complete the crime.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/inchoate-crimes/attempt/

Now I don't believe mere membership in a hate group - even one with a track record like the KKK - would necessarily establish the specific criminal intent required to prove conspiracy or intent. But if there is oral or written discussion of a specific act or acts (e.g., let's shoot up some synagogues and Black churches) and then weapons are purchased/amassed, the purchase/stockpiling of weapons may well be the "step" toward execution of the crime that, combined with the intent, would allow an arrest and potentially a seizure of the weapons.

[baldgriff]

As I said - if an actual crime (conspiracy is a crime) is committed then yes arrest. The mere ownership of multiple guns is not enough on its own.

[baldgriff]

So we targeted Saudi nationals? Oh right, never mind. And funny how McVeigh's bombing and murdering 168 people never gets mentioned for domestic terrorist profiling. It's only excused when it's non-white people who are targeted.

Dude - Im not excusing anything. Im merely stating that when a foreign terrorist group flies planes into your countries busiest cities - there is some blow back from that. I believe I actually did state I agree with TW regarding increased focus on white nationalist groups. Just pointing out the likely reason that there is more of a focus on a different group. You dont have to like it - I may not agree with it - but it is the most likely reason that it occurred.

[Gregg]

So we targeted Saudi nationals? Oh right, never mind. And funny how McVeigh's bombing and murdering 168 people never gets mentioned for domestic terrorist profiling. It's only excused when it's non-white people who are targeted.

Can you believe that next month will be 21 years since McVeigh was convicted?

[DMT]

Dude - Im not excusing anything. Im merely stating that when a foreign terrorist group flies planes into your countries busiest cities - there is some blow back from that. I believe I actually did state I agree with TW regarding increased focus on white nationalist groups. Just pointing out the likely reason that there is more of a focus on a different group. You dont have to like it - I may not agree with it - but it is the most likely reason that it occurred.

I didn't say you were excusing it. Just pointing out the hypocrisy in America of terrorist profiling of Muslims and other POC when white men are the most likely to commit acts of domestic terrorism.

[Gregg]

Can you believe that next month will be 21 years since McVeigh was convicted?

I found these interesting. It they were ever mentioned in my history classes I was not paying attention.

Wall Street bombing (1920)
Main article: Wall Street bombing
The Wall Street bombing was a terrorist incident that occurred on September 16, 1920, in the Financial District of New York City. A horse-drawn wagon filled with 100 pounds (45 kg) of dynamite was stationed across the street from the headquarters of the J.P. Morgan Inc. bank. The explosion killed 38 and injured 400. Even though no one was found guilty, it is believed that the act was carried out by followers of Luigi Galleani.

Burning of Black Wall Street (1921)
Main article: Tulsa race riot
On May 31 and June 1, 1921, a white mob started the Tulsa race riot, attacking residents and businesses of the African-American community of Greenwood in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in what is considered one of the worst incidents of racial violence in United States History. The attack, carried out on the ground and by air, destroyed more than 35 blocks of the district, did $30 million (2017 dollars) in damages, left 10,000 people homeless and up to 300 dead in a town considered the wealthiest black community in the nation.

[DMT]

Just another Wednesday in post-racist America.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/unwanted-subject-what-led-a-kirkland-yogurt-shop-to-call-police-on-a-black-man/