#___ingwhileblack

[Teenwolf]

It is unfortunate that folks here that probably agree on 90% of the issues in this thread on being driven apart by divisive language and misdirected anger. I understand everyone's position here, and there are potentially some interesting discussions to be had on this topic (like the distinction we could make between individual racism and institutional racism, and how, certainly, whites can experience the former, but really don't, on a large scale, experience the latter, in our society), but they are not gonna happen now, because people got personal and insulting. To be specific, I understand TW's perspective that "Whitey" isn't all that bad of a term, especially in the context of race power dynamics in this country. However, nots calling out the use of that term was pretty benign, and seemed to be genuine in being a call for civility in a thread about being civil, and the response to that could have been more polite and less "you must be dumb and/or on the side of racists, stop being a snowflake." But folks took the bait (can't see I haven't been hooked by such comments myself, so not judging, really), and here we are, drifting farther away from productive dialogue.

I concur.

Even though "whitey" isnt a racist slur, because systemic racism against whites is made up... I'll give nots the benefit of the doubt to allow that he simply wanted us to stop name calling (even if the name calling is in reference to scumbags), then fine. Whatever. Raising the level of decorum. Sure.

[Ken]

Ken..personal sob story..

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Sour Masher]

But the difference is, he had state- sanctioned legal recourse to press charges if his descriptions of the events are accurate. His co-workers likely did not (as nor do millions of people today).

I don't disagree with you, and I wish we could have gotten into this distinction in a productive way, but I don't think that is gonna happen at this point, because of the attacks, subsequent defensiveness and anger in the thread right now.

[nots]

I concur.

Even though "whitey" isnt a racist slur, because systemic racism against whites is made up... I'll give nots the benefit of the doubt to allow that he simply wanted us to stop name calling (even if the name calling is in reference to scumbags), then fine. Whatever. Raising the level of decorum. Sure.

But as for Ken.... Dude needs to own/remedy his misunderstanding of racial power dynamics and step back from his personal sob story. #realtalk

Why is his personal sob story less meaningful than your personal sob stories you’ve written about here in the past? Who exactly are you to invalidate what has happened to him or elevate what has happened to you (well, actually to your GF, not actually you).

[Ken]

There is a difference between individual racism and institutional racism.

This, 100% - it's odd to me that there are actually people in this day and age that don't understand the difference between the two. Can you really be having a discussion about racism and *not* comprehend that both type exist? Amazing how ignorant some are to this.

[Teenwolf]

Right, but he hasn’t acknowledged it this time and neither has Revo

First, I often apologize for going too far here, but I do believe this was cause for some righteous outrage... towards another poster, and I've made my thoughts clear on that.

I brought up a vile, disgusting, horrendous post of racial bias that chancellor posted recently, going on about black victimhood. Here's what happened. 1 or 2 lefties said "whoa, that's brutal", CBB posted the "good posting" smiley... and everybody went on about their damn days. It bothers me so much that you guys will spend hours of your life debating something so stupid (IMO) as the word "whitey", and yet you're all too scared to call out real and disgusting racial diatribes that are actually shocking and disturbing, and being posted here.

Chance is also too busy to respond to my personal calling out as well, so I'm at a loss. I thought part of what gives me the privilege of posting here is that I should be responsible to answer for the things i say. That's why i apologize when i do cross a line. I wish others felt the same responsibility to the posting community.

[Teenwolf]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Sorry, I've deleted the offensive comment. Feel free to PM me, but I appreciate your recognition of systemic racism, and we dont need to go any further than that.

Sorry for being a jerk.

[Ken]

Ken you're asking me to respond to an incident from your life that I have zero connection to. It sounds pretty horrific and I can't imagine your parents would support your life being threatened on a job. Were your co-workers being prejudiced assholes?
Certainly. Were they criminally violent? Sounds like maybe they were. Were they being racist in a system that values white-ness over people of color in every state- backed mechanism in our country? No, they weren't.

I was giving you an example of individual racism. Take me out of the equation and make it like one of the many examples in this thread (although much, much less severe). But the fact that it does not fit institutional racism does not preclude it from being a racial slur and racist behavior. We can separate those two and address them individually they do not have to be combined.

[Ken]

Sorry, I've deleted the offensive comment. Feel free to PM me, but I appreciate your recognition of systemic racism, and we dont need to go any further than that.

Sorry for being a jerk.

Accepted and apologies in turn for not giving you more leeway on a sensitive topic.

[DMT]

I was giving you an example of individual racism. Take me out of the equation and make it like one of the many examples in this thread (although much, much less severe). But the fact that it does not fit institutional racism does not preclude it from being a racial slur and racist behavior. We can separate those two and address them individually they do not have to be combined.

I'm in no way defending what your co-workers did, nor any hate-based verbal or physical aggression towards white people by people of color. What I'm saying is, those behaviors don't have centuries of state protection behind them. It's arguably a semantic differentiation, but I still feel it's an important distinguishment.

[Ken]

I'm in no way defending what your co-workers did, nor any hate-based verbal or physical aggression towards white people by people of color. What I'm saying is, those behaviors don't have centuries of state protection behind them. It's arguably a semantic differentiation, but I still feel it's an important distinguishment.

Right, you are saying it is not institutional racism. We all get that. But no one ever said it was institutional racism. What you are missing is that it is individual racism. They are two separate forms of racism. But they both exist and denying the existence of either one of them is not productive. They are both racism. They are both disgusting realities that need to be addressed.

It is not constructive to minimize the individual racism just because it doesn't meet your definition of instituational racism. In fact it is counter productive to your goal. That's what I've been saying all along (from the start - it's why I said not to use whitey in the first place)

[Sour Masher]

Speaking of systemic institutional racism, one thing that enrages me so much about the stories posted in this thread is how flippantly and cluelessly some white individuals wield the powerful weapon of law enforcement against minorities. I really wish more folks would know how hurtful and potentially dangerous it is to involve law enforcement into petty little things like outdoor grilling, swimming in a pool, selling water on a hot day. I think at least some of these white folks do not get how unfair and wrong it is to wield such a powerful and such an historically abused tool of oppression and othering.

While we are on the subject of institutional vs individual racism, I think the public debate on the issue of racism in relation to law enforcement would benefit from that distinction. Individual police officers need not be racist for them to be weaponized by a racist system against minorities. Dave Chappelle made the excellent point in one of his recent specials that we would be much better served in this country by fighting systems of inequality rather than individual racists. Doing this would lead to less vitriol, less defensiveness by those who feel personally attacked by being called racists or supporters of racism, and ideally more acceptance and understanding of undeniable facts of our systems of oppression, so we can come to a consensus on how to fix them.

For instance, a point of consensus I've found on this site from even the most right-leaning posters (Chance, if I recall right, wholeheartedly agreed with this) is that the following things are true:

1. Children are far more likely to thrive, flourish, and advance from poverty to prosperity when they have a father present (I'd add that I think having any two supportive parents, and ideally even more adults that care, is just as good)
2. Minority neighborhoods are most often policed more than white neighborhoods.
3. Impartial stats show that whites commit many of the same crimes at the same rate as minorities, specifically illegal drug use and abuse, yet they are caught less often and when they are caught, they are penalized far less severely (the differences in penalty between cocaine possession and crack possession is mind-boggling).
4. These systemic imbalances of policing and prosecution leads to more violent confrontations with police and more frequent and longer incarcerations for minorities, especially young black men.
5. These imbalances lead to more absentee fathers, less long term opportunities for reform and advancement by young black men, and worse outcomes not only for them but their children.

So, on this site, anyway, all of us seem to agree on these issues, yet as a society, we do not properly address these things, so young black men continue to be watched for criminal behavior more closely than others, they continue to be caught more often, and prosecuted more harshly. This has wide rippling consequences that profoundly disadvantage not just young black men, but the next generation, and the cycle continues. This is one of the examples of how our system, not individuals, is the real cause of so much inequality of opportunity in our society. It is easier to get outraged by the individual racists, and it feels good to out and to shame them. But until we address the systemic issues, nothing is really going to change.

[DMT]

Right, you are saying it is not institutional racism. We all get that. But no one ever said it was institutional racism. What you are missing is that it is individual racism. They are two separate forms of racism. But they both exist and denying the existence of either one of them is not productive. They are both racism. They are both disgusting realities that need to be addressed.

It is not constructive to minimize the individual racism just because it doesn't meet your definition of instituational racism. In fact it is counter productive to your goal. That's what I've been saying all along (from the start - it's why I said not to use whitey in the first place)

Sorry, but I disagree. Systemic racism is the fundamental problem, individual racists are symptoms of that problem.

[Gregg]

I didn't say that, merely that anyone who believes that white Americans are victims of racism doesn't understand what racism is.

What would you call Teenwolf getting his ass kicked by black people just because he is married to a black woman?

[DMT]

Sorry, but I disagree. Systemic racism is the fundamental problem, individual racists are symptoms of that problem.

I would like to add that most white people have inverted this and view individual racists as the problem. That allows them to feel better about themselves since they don't engage in racist behaviors. They also generally get very defensive when confronted with the fact the they have benefited their entire lives from our racist system because they associate racism only with "bad people".