Democratic Party 2017 and beyond

[Hornsby]

Nah, not worth the effort. If you want to play in the shallow end of the pool, enjoy yourself. Have a good Thursday!

LOL...really? Not worth the effort for something you felt strongly enough to try to refute in the first place? Or is it more that you CAN'T refute the points?

[DMT]

Yea, the 'I have great responses to refute your points but don't want to bother' is about the lamest response possible.

[nots]

He said courts have started striking down the racist practice of gerrymandering and he said it without a qualifier. I pointed out in the most visible case, the court ruled it was partisan not racial. He moved the goalposts and asked about two other states. So, in essence, he wants to argue that the GOP is racist except when its partisan and he will let me know which is which after he makes a blanket statement that is refutable.
Hard to believe i thought better of continuing this discussion.

[gcstomp]

the points listed by red all have merit, with room for argument that the case is not so black and white. court pointing out partisan gerrymandering is not an argument against racial bias, for instance. the best argument for a republican, or defender of overt partisan moves with racial bias, is the standard righteous indignation, and call for dems to produce someone better. you cannot dismiss reds list as false, you can merely deflect, and say i will not engage in label politics, then do a convincing walk off.

[Redbirds Fan]

He said courts have started striking down the racist practice of gerrymandering and he said it without a qualifier. I pointed out in the most visible case, the court ruled it was partisan not racial. He moved the goalposts and asked about two other states. So, in essence, he wants to argue that the GOP is racist except when its partisan and he will let me know which is which after he makes a blanket statement that is refutable.
Hard to believe i thought better of continuing this discussion.

It is hard to argue with you. Wisconsin being a case about partisan gerrymandering does not mean the GOP doesn't racially gerrymander. It just means they cheat in every way possible. It isn't the most visible case, either. So far as I know, it hasn't been appealed to SCOTUS yet. The GOP redistricting got hammered, though.

North Carolina has been the land of racial redistricting. At least three cases are before the big court, where GOP forces are hoping to get one overturned. The plaintiffs were ruled against in the Virginia case, but experts say there is a good chance SCOTUS will reverse. There are cases from Alabama and other states, too. The issue in some of these cases is whether it is racial redistricting or partisan redistricting, or both, and whether it matters which one it is. My point about Wisconsin is that there are so few African Americans (6%) that racial redistricting is not as big a problem as pure partisan redistricting.

The GOP has all three branches now. They need to buck up and quit complaining about Obama and Hillary, and do their jobs. After nearly a month in office, Trump starts to claim he inherited a mess. Odd how this coincides with the chaos level peaking out and rats leaving a sinking ship. That's the way he is playing it. Always find someone else to blame.

[nots]

It is hard to argue with you. Wisconsin being a case about partisan gerrymandering does not mean the GOP doesn't racially gerrymander. It just means they cheat in every way possible. It isn't the most visible case, either. So far as I know, it hasn't been appealed to SCOTUS yet. The GOP redistricting got hammered, though.

North Carolina has been the land of racial redistricting. At least three cases are before the big court, where GOP forces are hoping to get one overturned. The plaintiffs were ruled against in the Virginia case, but experts say there is a good chance SCOTUS will reverse. There are cases from Alabama and other states, too. The issue in some of these cases is whether it is racial redistricting or partisan redistricting, or both, and whether it matters which one it is. My point about Wisconsin is that there are so few African Americans (6%) that racial redistricting is not as big a problem as pure partisan redistricting.

The GOP has all three branches now. They need to buck up and quit complaining about Obama and Hillary, and do their jobs. After nearly a month in office, Trump starts to claim he inherited a mess. Odd how this coincides with the chaos level peaking out and rats leaving a sinking ship. That's the way he is playing it. Always find someone else to blame.

Try arguing with someone who speaks in absolutes then moves the goalposts

[cardboardbox]

Among ourselves, we discuss the changes we need to make. All parties need to change to survive, as the GOP recognized in their famous 'autopsy', which they then ignored.

What I can tell you as an outsider is that the GOP has no reason to be smug. You lost the general by three million votes and squeaked out one of the thinnest EV wins ever. This came after doing what the GOP thought was impossible...losing twice to a black man. So don't get too comfortable on top. It may not last as long as you are counting on.

I'm not a republican, but thanks for your concern.

[cardboardbox]

I think you 've been asked a number of times to give examples or explain this, but I don't ever recall seeing a response. What exactly do you mean ?

I dont believe democrats have any room to undergo another lurch to the left and if they do, they will be less relevant than they are today. As 2010 - 2016 showed, the electorate isnt as far left as you'd like to think they are.

[DMT]

I dont believe democrats have any room to undergo another lurch to the left and if they do, they will be less relevant than they are today. As 2010 - 2016 showed, the electorate isnt as far left as you'd like to think they are.

Again, how have they lurched to the left?

[DMT]

IMO the Republicans have lurched to the right. Democrats have mostly remained the same so it may appear they have moved left, but only in relation to the Republicans.

[cardboardbox]

Again, how have they lurched to the left?

compare current democrats to early 2000s, or mid 1990s, completely different. Just about the only think democrats what to talk about now is identity politics.

[cardboardbox]

IMO the Republicans have lurched to the right. Democrats have mostly remained the same so it may appear they have moved left, but only in relation to the Republicans.

I do agree that the moderates are not as common but I dont agree that republicans have moved right, if anything they are drifting left.

[DMT]

compare current democrats to early 2000s, or mid 1990s, completely different. Just about the only think democrats what to talk about now is identity politics.

What you call identity politics is really fighting for the rights of minority groups. I don't see that as dramatically different.

Republicans drifting left on what issues? They are still for tax cuts, gutting environmental regulations, cutting social welfare programs, and expanding the military.

[cardboardbox]

What you call identity politics is really fighting for the rights of minority groups. I don't see that as dramatically different.

do democrats talk about anything else anymore? Other than hating trump? Thats all I hear from them...

Republicans drifting left on what issues? They are still for tax cuts, gutting environmental regulations, cutting social welfare programs, and expanding the military.

but they are for lots of govt spending now, they are for social programs. Notice I said drifting left, not that they are the same as democrats, but on the right/left scale they are further left now than they were 15-20 years ago. They used to be completely against gay rights, now I think even if they wanted to they couldnt find the votes to take away those rights.

[baldgriff]

Again, how have they lurched to the left?

Here is an example.... Bill Clinton's State of the Union address sounds amazingly like what Trump is proposing.