President Donald Trump

[The Feral Slasher]

Let me turn the question on you...what would YOU do to earn their votes? I really don't know that you can have their loyalty without their leader going in whole hog as a rank and file Democrat, but I can assume that there's a way to earn their vote...is there?

That's a good question ! The Democratic Party needs to figure this out. Certainly turning away from the corporations and neo-liberal policies would help. But I think the Democrats feel that this would cost them financially. Or else the people making decisions are dependent on the influx of corporate money, so they are reluctant to reject it.

My own thoughts are that all the "Berners" and a large segment of independent/non-voters would respond positively to rejecting dependence on corporate money as the means of financing the Democratic Party. It would make their message much more believable. Clearly what I will call "loyal Democrats" believe the party is fighting for the middle class much more than most of the population. I think Democrats should at least consider a new approach instead of rejecting it out of anger at Bernie and his supporters.

[Hornsby]

That's a good question ! The Democratic Party needs to figure this out. Certainly turning away from the corporations and neo-liberal policies would help. But I think the Democrats feel that this would cost them financially. Or else the people making decisions are dependent on the influx of corporate money, so they are reluctant to reject it.

My own thoughts are that all the "Berners" and a large segment of independent/non-voters would respond positively to rejecting dependence on corporate money as the means of financing the Democratic Party. It would make their message much more believable. Clearly what I will call "loyal Democrats" believe the party is fighting for the middle class much more than most of the population. I think Democrats should at least consider a new approach instead of rejecting it out of anger at Bernie and his supporters.

I just don't see corporations getting out of politics, there's just too much incentive for them to stay involved. And short of some sort of a Supreme Court decision banning corporate money, both parties will be there with their hands out. It's just too expensive to run a political campaign these days to say that you won't accept any corporate donations. As coveted as Bernie's mailing list might be, it's still just a small portion of what would be needed to fund party activities and potential campaigns. So I don't see much changing there...

[Redbirds Fan]

I think you can expect whatever you want from party members, but if they don't support what the organization is promoting they will leave. And blaming and criticizing them isn't likely to help retain them.

I just think you missed my point. Let me put it another way. They want to go out for the team. But if they wind up not starting, they quit and talk shit.

To answer the question about what the Democrats do to get them back, I don't think there is anything which can be done. No party could meet all the conditions and accomodations demanded by the various factions of Sanders wing, from fracking to term limits to trade to minimum wage to personal apologies from Hillary and public floggings of DWS. And, of course, anything short of total capitulation by the DNC would require "compromise" by the Berners. And compromise, to them, is a mortal sin.

So I think the Democratic Party soldiers on. The Berners have overplayed their hand.

[GwynnInTheHall]

This thread has veered a bit to include the Dem Party and it's direction going forward.

I'd like to thank Feral for asking the pertinent questions and the responses have been very telling, indeed.

It's obvious that Lucky and those like him who've spent their lives serving the Law, good or bad, following the rules, right or wrong and living within the system flawed or not have one mindset and frankly, anyone who doesn't get in line with Rules, laws and the system 'seem, irrational, unreasonable and insert denigrating adjective de jour and are treated as such.

On the other hand, I and other like me, have spent our lives making choices we think are best and which may run contrary to Rules, Laws and Systems. We see no problem ignoring what people think we "Should"do or "ëxpect"us to do, we do what our conscience tells us is right. Which brings about the conflict.

The Democratic party was thought by many, myself included, to stand for certain things, but as it's been pointed out, we were naive. Our expectations are different than people like Lucky, which is fine, but from where I sit (and I've quite a bit of company) I am no longer in line with Establishment Democratic Platforms and therefore will be looking for those in politics, Like Sanders, who I share commonalities with and work to help them succeed in the political arena in whichever form their platform takes.

As for the current state of the D Party, well it's fractured with much animosity on both side towards the other--you can see it reflected in here and there are several articles on this very subject a quick google search away. people thinking it's only a difference in policy points that are dividing the Dems or the residual vitriol of the election which will keep the sides from uniting are missing the biggest hurdle to any healing that might take place and that is simply--we approach life differently--You can see it clearly in the differences between Lucky and I, how we approach things and in our expectations.

Will the Berners make a difference going forward? They did in the past election and I don't see them losing any momentum in fact, the DNC chair vote did nothing to change anyone's mind-

So yes feral, if the mainstream Dem Party wants Sanders supporters to come into the fold, they will have to adopt some of Sanders platforms or as you mentioned Why the hell would we want to be a part of their group?

BTW, Compromise is one thing, Capitulation is another. You can follow the rules. obey the Law and use the system as it was intended and STILL be an unethical person. It's up to us individually whether that bothers us or not.

Again, thanks for asking great questions Slasher, great responses as well Steve, nice to hear your opinions sin snark.

[The Feral Slasher]

I just think you missed my point. Let me put it another way. They want to go out for the team. But if they wind up not starting, they quit and talk shit.

To answer the question about what the Democrats do to get them back, I don't think there is anything which can be done. No party could meet all the conditions and accomodations demanded by the various factions of Sanders wing, from fracking to term limits to trade to minimum wage to personal apologies from Hillary and public floggings of DWS. And, of course, anything short of total capitulation by the DNC would require "compromise" by the Berners. And compromise, to them, is a mortal sin.

So I think the Democratic Party soldiers on. The Berners have overplayed their hand.

This was a very clarifying post. Sanders supporters are irrational zealots who can't be satisfied and there is no place for them in the Democratic party. And based upon recent election results they aren't needed anyway. Unless a scapegoat is called for, then we all know who is to blame.

[The Feral Slasher]

I just don't see corporations getting out of politics, there's just too much incentive for them to stay involved. And short of some sort of a Supreme Court decision banning corporate money, both parties will be there with their hands out. It's just too expensive to run a political campaign these days to say that you won't accept any corporate donations. As coveted as Bernie's mailing list might be, it's still just a small portion of what would be needed to fund party activities and potential campaigns. So I don't see much changing there...

I don't see corporations getting out of politics either and don't see the Democrats turning down their donations. But that is a choice, and one that has consequences.

[Redbirds Fan]

This was a very clarifying post. Sanders supporters are irrational zealots who can't be satisfied and there is no place for them in the Democratic party. And based upon recent election results they aren't needed anyway. Unless a scapegoat is called for, then we all know who is to blame.

You have badly oversimplified my stated position. Are you going out of your way to be disagreeable?

I was a Sanders supporter. I also tried to keep Trump from being elected.

There is a place for anyone in the Democratic Party who wants to be a member. But if you don't want to be a Democrat, it is probably not the best place for you. And although it is not up to me to say, if you want to be a part-timer or a short-termer, then I would say there is no place for you in the party.

I don't believe you would willingly go into battle with someone you knew you couldn't count on when things got tough. It is disingenious for you to suggest that the Democratic party should beg for the membersip of individuals who have proven they cannot be trusted.


EDIT: Looking back over a couple of threads, I can't see that you have taken strong positions on anything, save for the radical stance that corporate money has too much influence in politics. You don't even seem to have a pulse on the Trump/Russia issue. You seem more interested in stirring stink than having some skin in the game. This is a step lower on the rung than the faux militant Berners, who eschew conventional politics and chart their own paths to the utopian future.

[Hodor]

You have badly oversimplified my stated position. Are you going out of your way to be disagreeable?

I was a Sanders supporter. I also tried to keep Trump from being elected.

There is a place for anyone in the Democratic Party who wants to be a member. But if you don't want to be a Democrat, it is probably not the best place for you. And although it is not up to me to say, if you want to be a part-timer or a short-termer, then I would say there is no place for you in the party.

I don't believe you would willingly go into battle with someone you knew you couldn't count on when things got tough. It is disingenious for you to suggest that the Democratic party should beg for the membersip of individuals who have proven they cannot be trusted.

Because the DNC has been so incredibly trustworthy, right?


And you keep saying that you voted Bernie in the primaries but you've said nothing about why you no longer support him.

[Hodor]

EDIT: Looking back over a couple of threads, I can't see that you have taken strong positions on anything, save for the radical stance that corporate money has too much influence in politics. You don't even seem to have a pulse on the Trump/Russia issue. You seem more interested in stirring stink than having some skin in the game. This is a step lower on the rung than the faux militant Berners, who eschew conventional politics and chart their own paths to the utopian future.

Lucky putting down yet another person for calling him out on his shit.

Well, he's consistent, I'll give him that.

[Hodor]

Hehe, I still can't stop laughing at the mention of the DNC not being able to trust Sanders supporters, hahaha hahaha, that's just hilarious.

[Hornsby]

Here's the conundrum for Bernie and the Berners...the Democratic party can survive without Bernie and Company, but Sanders and his supporters can't make it without the big party. Right now, he's a player. If he decides to take his people and split off, he's a nobody, caucusing by himself with no influence in the Senate. The GOP wouldn't take him, and the Dems might just take the hit that the loss of his vote, since they can't really override the Republican bloc anyway at this point. And sooner or later, the supporters would drift off as well, since they really wouldn't be able to make an appreciable difference by themselves. So Red is right here, IMO, Bernie and company may have not overplayed their hand yet, but they are in danger of doing so.

There's a large bloc of voters who would come home to a moderate Democratic party, IMO. Re-position yourself as the party of the people, commit to the ideals that made the party great, both socially and fiscally, and don't look back.

[gcstomp]

Thankful Democrats have time to regroup. Landscape will be different in 2020, and Trump helps in every way and every day to strength and motivate the general cause. The internal battle is troubling, miles to go.

[Hodor]

Here's the conundrum for Bernie and the Berners...the Democratic party can survive without Bernie and Company, but Sanders and his supporters can't make it without the big party. Right now, he's a player. If he decides to take his people and split off, he's a nobody, caucusing by himself with no influence in the Senate. The GOP wouldn't take him, and the Dems might just take the hit that the loss of his vote, since they can't really override the Republican bloc anyway at this point. And sooner or later, the supporters would drift off as well, since they really wouldn't be able to make an appreciable difference by themselves. So Red is right here, IMO, Bernie and company may have not overplayed their hand yet, but they are in danger of doing so.

There's a large bloc of voters who would come home to a moderate Democratic party, IMO. Re-position yourself as the party of the people, commit to the ideals that made the party great, both socially and fiscally, and don't look back.

This is a possibility, reasonable and thoughtful, however I think you are again, underestimating Sanders and his supporters/influence.

Look at the number of delegates he got in the primary even after the crap the DNC pulled. The vote for his choice to lead the DNC got almost half the votes even with several establishment Dems threatening to leave the party if Ellison was elected. And Sanders isn't alone in the party should he choose to fight the direction it's going. His vote isn't the only hit the party would take and it's already losing votes to red state Democrats who are vulnerable.

Keep in mind that the GOP looked upon the tea party in the same manner and we've seen the disruption they have caused.

I do believe that both sides of the party need to move together in order to remain feasible.

However, as long as the mainstream members have attitudes like and treat Sanders and his supporters in the manner lucky exemplifies, the greater the possibility of a permanently fractured party.

[swampdragon]

please see my question in the democrat thread - and let's try to focus back on Trump here

and the drastically threatening issue of removing press (that publishes facts) from his briefings

[Teenwolf]

This is a possibility, reasonable and thoughtful, however I think you are again, underestimating Sanders and his supporters/influence.

Look at the number of delegates he got in the primary even after the crap the DNC pulled. The vote for his choice to lead the DNC got almost half the votes even with several establishment Dems threatening to leave the party if Ellison was elected. And Sanders isn't alone in the party should he choose to fight the direction it's going. His vote isn't the only hit the party would take and it's already losing votes to red state Democrats who are vulnerable.

Keep in mind that the GOP looked upon the tea party in the same manner and we've seen the disruption they have caused.

I do believe that both sides of the party need to move together in order to remain feasible.

However, as long as the mainstream members have attitudes like and treat Sanders and his supporters in the manner lucky exemplifies, the greater the possibility of a permanently fractured party.

100% agree.

The youth vote, the non-voting bloc, these are the biggest makeup of the future Democratic vote. Hillary crushed Trump in fundraising, and it didn't help her one bit! It may have even hurt her, by making her seem desperate and beholden to corporate money, since that became one of the biggest narratives of the campaign. The whole false equivalency BS that went on needs to end, as people saw Trump/Hillary as two sides of the same coin. Start making concessions to bring the Bernie bloc and the centrist Libs together... Make a deal with Bernie where you agree to end the Dems acceptance of super PAC funds in exchange for Bernie jumping back on board. This is my hope, to see the Ellison/Perez sides come to a resolution over ending corporate funding as a means of standing up for an ideal that people will vote for en masse. This should be simple arithmetic.