President Donald Trump

[Sour Masher]

He says he doesn't care about the Manafort charges, although he has been tweeting in a panic about them. Just like he said he didn't care about Comey, although he continues to tweet about him to this very day. Don't watch what he says, watch what he does. He is shaken by this. He knew something was coming. That is why the right wing world has been in a frenzy for the last two weeks attempting to spin up a Clinton/Comey/Obama/Fusion/Uranium scandal. Hannity has been absolutely hysterical.

Well, even if nothing more than fear and angst comes from this for Trump and his sycophantic supporters, I can take solace in their emotional upheaval. I'm being sincere here--I know it doesn't make me a great person, but when you just reminded me that Sean Hannity is going crazy over this stuff, it genuinely brightened my day. If nothing else, I'll get some good schadenfreude out of their writhing.

[cardboardbox]

Why and how are you so certain? What if his son and son-in-law are next? What if Manafort or this other bozo give up key information against Trump in exchange for leniency?

I took the question at face value, not tossing hypotheticals against a wall to see what sticks. We can what if all day long...

[cardboardbox]

Because the RW propaganda machine is very good.

I havent read anything but cnn for weeks. I'm knee deep in the lefty propaganda machine.

[Redbirds Fan]

Well, even if nothing more than fear and angst comes from this for Trump and his sycophantic supporters, I can take solace in their emotional upheaval. I'm being sincere here--I know it doesn't make me a great person, but when you just reminded me that Sean Hannity is going crazy over this stuff, it genuinely brightened my day. If nothing else, I'll get some good schadenfreude out of their writhing.

Well, another thing that comes to mind...and my wife tells me often that I assume way too much...I hear the WH trying to distance itself from Manafort and I pretty much ignore it as noise, because I know that is part of the game in virtually every criminal endeavor. Solid citizens like yourself may not be used to that sort of duplicity, but in my career I have seen it on a weekly basis.

I have seen brothers deny being brothers. Fathers and sons deny being kin. I've seen guys who served time together deny ever having met. Guys watching a video of themselves robbing a convenience store claiming "That's not me!" My favorite was a guy who, being booked into jail, was found to have a baggie of weed in his pocket. "Hey", he said. "These aren't my pants!"

So I'm not that moved by Trump's denials of Manafort and the other guy, or the Shuckster's claims that they were just some guys who didn't really have anything to do with the Campaign.

One thing you will notice about Mueller...he doesn't get pulled into these petty disputes or drawn off course. You don't see him issuing press releases or statements or denials or anything like that. Those guys keep their heads down and their noses to the grindstone. They are serious as hell, another thing that scares the Trump people. Trump's legal team doesn't know how to deal with lawyers who don't try their cases on television.

[Redbirds Fan]

Well, even if nothing more than fear and angst comes from this for Trump and his sycophantic supporters, I can take solace in their emotional upheaval. I'm being sincere here--I know it doesn't make me a great person, but when you just reminded me that Sean Hannity is going crazy over this stuff, it genuinely brightened my day. If nothing else, I'll get some good schadenfreude out of their writhing.

If you do in fact enjoy the vengeance aspect, you should have fun with the Manafort case. My prediction...he will wind up copping a plea. But whatever happens, he will lose all his shit. The indictment seeks property forfeiture. Even when the feds give you a break on prison, they are often ruthless on forfeitures in a case like that.

[Hornsby]

I guess what I'm most curious about--is there anyway any of these could lead to charges against Trump himself, or would that take more that whatever Manafort could give them? What, hypothetically, could he give them that would be corroborated by evidence beyond his word?

I get that this is the beginning of the dominoes falling around Trump, and it all looks very bad for him and could lead to serious jail time for many around him. But Trump has already made it pretty clear that as long as charges are not directly against him, he doesn't care all that much, and I worry his party and supporters will feel the same. Remember, all he cared about with Comey was that HE wasn't under direct and personal investigation. I fear that anything short of direct evidence implicating Trump in wrong doing won't end our long national nightmare earlier than 2020. I realize hoping that this might play out in a way that got Trump our of office earlier than that was probably a pipe-dream, but it keeps me going. So, I'm wondering if these indictments keep that hope alive, or is it too early to tell?

Trump is feeling the heat, count on it...just look at his tweets, they're a pretty direct door to his subconscious in many ways. Yesterday, when news of the forthcoming indictments was coming down, he turned it to HRC and the Democrats, and just suddenly let his Id scream in all caps: DO SOMETHING! It would be weird for anyone to go off in public this way, but for the President of the United States? I can't imagine what's going through his head right now...

[Sour Masher]

Trump is feeling the heat, count on it...just look at his tweets, they're a pretty direct door to his subconscious in many ways. Yesterday, when news of the forthcoming indictments was coming down, he turned it to HRC and the Democrats, and just suddenly let his Id scream in all caps: DO SOMETHING! It would be weird for anyone to go off in public this way, but for the President of the United States? I can't imagine what's going through his head right now...

You are right about all of this. I worded things poorly. Certainly, Trump cares, even if/while he says he does not. And as RF says, of course Manafort was central to his campaign, despite his denials (much like the weed in the pants guy, Manafort belongs to Trump, no matter how he denies it). What I meant to express was that I really care/hope that this can amount to more than angst, anger, embarrassment for him. I want the Mueller investigation to lead to his downfall as president. I know it is too early to tell if this might be the first step in that direction, but I'm so anxious for confirmation that it might be, I'm asking these questions to our astute legal minds here before an educated guess is probably possible.

[Redbirds Fan]

Trump is feeling the heat, count on it...just look at his tweets, they're a pretty direct door to his subconscious in many ways. Yesterday, when news of the forthcoming indictments was coming down, he turned it to HRC and the Democrats, and just suddenly let his Id scream in all caps: DO SOMETHING! It would be weird for anyone to go off in public this way, but for the President of the United States? I can't imagine what's going through his head right now...

Good point. He wants badly for something to happen. He doesn't care so much what, just that it isn't something done by Robert Mueller. Looking back, the "DO SOMETHING!" tweet may have been the most bizarre so far.

The plea deal entered in secret three weeks ago should be the thing that scares Gates, Manafort and others. That is clearly a flipper plea deal. People who make early deals get the best deals.

[TranaGreg]

You are right about all of this. I worded things poorly. Certainly, Trump cares, even if/while he says he does not. And as RF says, of course Manafort was central to his campaign, despite his denials (much like the weed in the pants guy, Manafort belongs to Trump, no matter how he denies it). What I meant to express was that I really care/hope that this can amount to more than angst, anger, embarrassment for him. I want the Mueller investigation to lead to his downfall as president. I know it is too early to tell if this might be the first step in that direction, but I'm so anxious for confirmation that it might be, I'm asking these questions to our astute legal minds here before an educated guess is probably possible.

A few months back I attended a talk by David Frum; one of the questions was about impeachment, and his response was interesting: he's one of the Trump admin's harshest critics, but when impeachment came up he was extremely cautious ... it wasn't the predictable Pence vs Trump, who's-worse? response ... paraphrasing, he cautioned about the toll it would take on the country, and in particular the response from the millions of Trump supporters that voted him into office - they may not support his methods but impeachment would be taken very personally by a very large number of them. It was a very sobering part of the discussion.

[Sour Masher]

A few months back I attended a talk by David Frum; one of the questions was about impeachment, and his response was interesting: he's one of the Trump admin's harshest critics, but when impeachment came up he was extremely cautious ... it wasn't the predictable Pence vs Trump, who's-worse? response ... paraphrasing, he cautioned about the toll it would take on the country, and in particular the response from the millions of Trump supporters that voted him into office - they may not support his methods but impeachment would be taken very personally by a very large number of them. It was a very sobering part of the discussion.

This is a good point. I would hope that the fractures impeachment would cause could be mitigated by the RW propoganda machine, at some point, doing its greater duty to the country and preaching at least some truth to its viewers/readers/listeners, so they can get from sources they trust some understanding of why impeachment isn't a travesty of justice, but that is asking/expecting too much. It would be expecting too much for Trump to pull a Nixon and bow out too--he'd fight till the end, telling his supporters that it is all a witch hunt and a conspiracy for the liberal mainstream media to invalidate all of their votes and voices. It could go bad if his supporters believe that.

[Redbirds Fan]

This is a good point. I would hope that the fractures impeachment would cause could be mitigated by the RW propoganda machine, at some point, doing its greater duty to the country and preaching at least some truth to its viewers/readers/listeners, so they can get from sources they trust some understanding of why impeachment isn't a travesty of justice, but that is asking/expecting too much. It would be expecting too much for Trump to pull a Nixon and bow out too--he'd fight till the end, telling his supporters that it is all a witch hunt and a conspiracy for the liberal mainstream media to invalidate all of their votes and voices. It could go bad if his supporters believe that.

Here are a couple of half-baked predictions:

Trump will never be impeached. The House would not pass an impeachment measure on the basis that he is incompetent, mentally unstable, etc. It would require evidence of an actual serious crime, and even that might not do it. (And I'm not sure I would want them to inititate impeachment proceedings. I agree with Frum on this point. Whatever the grounds, his so-called base would never accept it.)

The more likely scenario is that Trump would finally be cornered, with absolutely no way out. He lacks the courage to go down fighting, and there are only so many people he can throw under the bus, so the option he would take would be to declare victory and resign as the most successful and beloved President of all time, despite the concerted efforts of the Dems, the MSM, the FBI, Crooked Hillary, and the Establishment GOP. A military parade down Pennsylvania Avenue, followed by Trump's victorious departure on Marine One, would be the most attended event in Washington history.

Thirty-eight percent of the American public will always believe it was fake news.

[Bernie Brewer]

I realize I’m interrupting the liberal feeding fest, and if by chance you are still here and self describe as a moderate Christian conservative, you are required to attempt to explain this nut job of a President, but i digress. I haven’t seen any speculation in this thread or on this board about Tony Podesta resigning from the Podesta Group because of this ongoing investigation. Now, if I recall correctly, isn’t he the brother of one of Trump’s biggest advisors, John Podesta? Maybe it was someone other than Trump?

Any way, I wonder what this is about? This is worth noting in addition to the Trumpettes and related already charged. Is this a sign of things to come and a wide berth sweep by Mueller?

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/tony-podesta-stepping-down-from-lobbying-giant-amid-mueller-probe-244314

Podesta has long been a larger than life figure on K Street, growing his business from a boutique firm into a massive lobbying and public relations operation. He is well known for his flashy dressing, vast art collection, generous campaign donations across all levels of Democratic politics and, of course, for his brother John Podesta, Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman.

Podesta Group has struggled in the wake of the Mueller investigation. More than a dozen of its lobbying clients have cut ties with the firm this year, according to lobbying filings. Revenues have also declined: The firm brought in an estimated $4.8 million in the third quarter of 2017, down from $5.2 million in the second quarter of 2017 and from $6.1 million in the third quarter of 2016.

[Hornsby]

I realize I’m interrupting the liberal feeding fest, and if by chance you are still here and self describe as a moderate Christian conservative, you are required to attempt to explain this nut job of a President, but i digress. I haven’t seen any speculation in this thread or on this board about Tony Podesta resigning from the Podesta Group because of this ongoing investigation. Now, if I recall correctly, isn’t he the brother of one of Trump’s biggest advisors, John Podesta? Maybe it was someone other than Trump?

Any way, I wonder what this is about? This is worth noting in addition to the Trumpettes and related already charged. Is this a sign of things to come and a wide berth sweep by Mueller?

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...r-probe-244314

Mueller has a mandate to investigate. And anyone who falls under his scrutiny, and is found to have potentially violated the law, is likely to be charged, regardless of party affiliation. As it should be. Anyone who want to sell out our nation for personal gain should be prosecuted.

[Bernie Brewer]

Mueller has a mandate to investigate. And anyone who falls under his scrutiny, and is found to have potentially violated the law, is likely to be charged, regardless of party affiliation. As it should be. Anyone who want to sell out our nation for personal gain should be prosecuted.

Well, see, we can agree on somethings. I guess what I was attempting to point out, and you apparently picked up on it which I appreciate, is that while this may appear to be a predominately “Trump“ centered investigation, I suspect the seine netting that Mueller has cast is going to catch a lot of fish, big and small, to varying degrees of wrong doing and regardless of the R or D after thier TV headlined name. Admittedly, I suspect there will be more Rs than Ds.

What happens with this Dossier? The HRC campaign and the DNC claim they didn’t know they were paying foreign operatives for “intelligence” gathering on candidate Trump? Why didn’t they admit to this sooner? And does the fact that a GOP operative ran an earlier less salacious version, give both absolution?

There are many Facets to this investigation, and many questions have to be answered.

[Bernie Brewer]

Here is another take on yesterday and what may be to come: https://www.wsj.com/articles/bob-mue...how-1509402576

The best way to think of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s Monday-morning indictments is as a compliment—backhanded as it may be—to the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Devin Nunes.

Like the special prosecutor, Mr. Nunes and his committee have been investigating the 2016 presidential campaign. Unlike the special prosecutor, Mr. Nunes has unearthed hard evidence about both Russian influence on the election and domestic spying on Trump campaign officials. And if the committee gets the documents it has been demanding for months about the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s handling of the salacious Christopher Steele dossier, this week may end even more explosively than it’s begun.

Meanwhile Mr. Nunes and the Republicans on his intel committee plod on. They do so in the face of mockery and contempt from the Beltway press corps, and sabotage and obstruction by Democrats, especially those on the committee. The obstruction includes a manufactured ethics charge against Mr. Nunes that has deliberately been kept unresolved in the House Ethics Committee as part of an effort to keep a cloud hanging over Mr. Nunes so long as he continues to ask real questions about not only the Russians but our own government.