President Donald Trump

[umjewman]

Trump has one of the great memories of all time. He said so himself.

People also don't realize he went to an Ivy League school. He is very intelligent. Dude, EVERYONE knows you went to an Ivy League school because you've said it about 3,000 times. You'd think your great memory of all time would remember that you have told us that every chance you get. Besides, Daddy probably got you in.

[Sour Masher]

Trump has one of the great memories of all time. He said so himself.

People also don't realize he went to an Ivy League school. He is very intelligent. Dude, EVERYONE knows you went to an Ivy League school because you've said it about 3,000 times. You'd think your great memory of all time would remember that you have told us that every chance you get. Besides, Daddy probably got you in.

There is no doubt in my mind that his father got him in. No way that guy gets in on his own merit. I won't go so far as to say Trump is the dumbest president we have ever had. His IQ may in fact be ahead of one or two others. But he is without a doubt the most ignorant and inarticulate. George W Bush didn't strike me as the sharpest tool in the toolshed, but he at least read more than just news media reports that included his name. He at least studied some basics of government and world affairs.

Trump seems to revel in his own ignorance on nearly all matters related to his position. Maybe he thinks it makes him even smarter that he was able to win the presidency while not studying huge swaths of vital information relevant to him making informed decisions. Maybe he thinks he is so smart, he can glean the true objective essence of affairs, simply by skimming Breitbart and InfoWars articles, and watching Fox News. It makes me sick how little he attends to facts. Scary stuff.

[hacko]

Here is what I don't understand - in the last 2 weeks - since Weinstein has been out as a Sexual deviant - we have women coming out of the woodwork against him and accusing others. ( Halprin today) How is this any different then Trump saying he could grab women by their Pussies. If I was Harvey My defense would be Its ok Trump did it and got elected President so I am not Guilty because the country said it was OK. Esp the Christian right who voted for him.

[dslaw]

Here is what I don't understand - in the last 2 weeks - since Weinstein has been out as a Sexual deviant - we have women coming out of the woodwork against him and accusing others. ( Halprin today) How is this any different then Trump saying he could grab women by their Pussies. If I was Harvey My defense would be Its ok Trump did it and got elected President so I am not Guilty because the country said it was OK. Esp the Christian right who voted for him.

Hollywood has been doing this forever and it is about time they had to pay for the all the degradation that occurs out there. Trump saying what he did was just boys being boys. And if you owned the Miss America pageant wouldn't you walk in while the girls were changing also? That is just the perks of the position. And divorce is bad and shouldn't happen, but Trump's wives got better looking each time he got remarried so he really didn't get divorced he just traded up. And real heroes get draft deferments from family doctors, they don't go to Vietnam and get captured. Those guys are just idiots for getting shot down. And who shakes hands with the German Chancellor anyway? She is a female and shouldn't be in that position. It was about time someone put her in her place. And the budget deficit doesn't matter. I know it mattered the last 8 years and it was all Obummers fault (he was born in Kenya, trust me as I know and I am smarter than you are) but now it doesn't matter so we can cut taxes and increase spending.

Or something like that.

[Redbirds Fan]

Okay, and while we are on the subject, here's my thing.

Bush 41. I know being 89 years old at the time doesn't excuse inappropriate behaviour, and I'm not saying the woman didn't have a right to feel offended. But...must every grievance be heard? Must every wrong be righted? Aren't there some things we can just keep to ourselves?

I'm not saying she had no right to complain. She did. I just think that if Barbara Bush had tweaked me on the ass I would have kept mum about it rather than drag her into the mud four years later as she was circling the drain, for no good reason than to get my name into the media. But I guess if she was that disturbed by the picture of Bush shaking hands with Obama....

The story did raise the question as to what type of contact it takes to constitute a sexual assault.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Okay, and while we are on the subject, here's my thing.

Bush 41. I know being 89 years old at the time doesn't excuse inappropriate behaviour, and I'm not saying the woman didn't have a right to feel offended. But...must every grievance be heard? Must every wrong be righted? Aren't there some things we can just keep to ourselves?

I'm not saying she had no right to complain. She did. I just think that if Barbara Bush had tweaked me on the ass I would have kept mum about it rather than drag her into the mud four years later as she was circling the drain, for no good reason than to get my name into the media. But I guess if she was that disturbed by the picture of Bush shaking hands with Obama....

The story did raise the question as to what type of contact it takes to constitute a sexual assault.

First of all, it's not one woman, it's three women so far, and it sounds like this is something he did routinely.

I don't think this is really about trying to sully Bush's legacy as much as women trying to find a voice for themselves. It's not quite the same as if Barbara Bush did it to you. The power dynamics are not equal between men and women in those type of situations.

When I think about what kind of world my daughters are going into, it really makes me sad that this is the kind of thing they will experience. I know it's always been that way and likely is better now than it ever was. But as a guy you just never have to worry about that.

[Sour Masher]

First of all, it's not one woman, it's three women so far, and it sounds like this is something he did routinely.

I don't think this is really about trying to sully Bush's legacy as much as women trying to find a voice for themselves. It's not quite the same as if Barbara Bush did it to you. The power dynamics are not equal between men and women in those type of situations.

When I think about what kind of world my daughters are going into, it really makes me sad that this is the kind of thing they will experience. I know it's always been that way and likely is better now than it ever was. But as a guy you just never have to worry about that.

These are all valid points. I agree that this was inappropriate behavior, and the people groped have a right to share their story, and I get why they are doing it now, as behavior like this, and much worse, is, thankfully, coming to light, and, hopefully, pushing our society in the right direction--away from this sort of behavior.

But I also get where RF is coming from as well. It is so hard to bring something like this up, without sounding like a clueless neanderthal, or making arguments that align in some way with horrible MRA agendas. I don't want to do that, and I don't think RB does either. But I do think it is fair to ask questions about gradation, context, degree of offense, false equivalencies, etc.

I think it is potentially hurtful to the good this long overdue movement may bring about if we don't, at times, bring up these questions in a respectful way. It wasn't this particular case that made me cringe a bit, but I have read, in a variety of places, folks adding a #metoo that extends what the movement means/intends into grayer areas than those cases it initially applied to. I fear, in some of those cases, the level of outrage and hurt don't seem to match the act, and may feed into a MRA narrative of hypersensitivity and Crucible-like persecution of poor, down-trodden males.

As a for instance, a metoo discussion began on a professional list-serv I belong to. I was happy to see that, and it makes me feel good that these once secret offenses are coming to light. That said, the discussion quickly shifted from clear cases of assault and harassment, to cases involving accounts that would best be characterized as micro-aggressions and/or situations where the intent and perception of an act may not have been in alignment. For example, one person reported being asked by a male colleague, while discussing resources he might have on hand to help her complete an article she was writing, to look for possible resources in the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet in his office, which forced her to bend over facing away from him as she looked for these resources. She perceived this as a purposeful act so he could get a good look at her ass. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. But I was uncomfortable about how her account was fully accepted as being an example of this larger problem. Her account, like others that seemed more much egregious to me, was equally applauded as an act of bravery and with similar sentiments of deep regret from the community that she has had to endure such belittling treatment. The rhetoric of the responses just struck me as a little bit out of sink with the level of the perceived offense described.

Related to this, I also have to respectfully push back on those who insist that we are buying into and supporting the fallacies of rape-culture if we, in any instances, suggest that there are varying degrees of assault and harassment. I get the impetus behind being uneasy about arguments that take us in the direction of distinguishing between "real rape" and "she really wanted it, it wasn't rape-rape" territory. But, as someone who has experienced certain kinds of abuses, I would never EQUATE my experiences with those my mother went through when she was a child, for instance. In my mind, while our experiences were of a kind, hers were several magnitudes worse. To me, it does not necessarily belittle or excuse or marginalize an offense if we acknowledge that the offense is wrong, but not equal to another offense. Simply put, some bad things are worse, even much worse, than other bad things of the same general kind.

I'm uncomfortable with those who lump together a sexist remark, an inappropriate joke, or an uninvited and inappropriate touch, like what Bush did, with the sort of assaults and rapes Weinstein/O'Reilly/Ailes/Cosby, etc (man, the etc is depressing here) has been accused of. There are degrees to everything, and I think it is reductive and dangerous to lump all wrong acts together. Again, that is not to excuse or dismiss the "lesser" offense, but simply to acknowledge that while it is an offense, it is not equal to other offenses people are bringing up as part of the same movement. And I'm not saying both types, or any types of similar stories should be excluded from this movement. Let's get it all out there. But if we want to get it all out, the whole spectrum of it, together, at the same time, we have to be careful we aren't lumping all such acts together as being of the same degree of wrong.

[Kevin Seitzer]

I definitely agree there are levels and gradations of offenses.

There is also some level of boys will be boys that while unkind and possibly demeaning is probably not anything more than that. I would put groping or grabbing another person beyond that level. And when one person is in a position of authority (doesn't seem to be the case with Bush), then even the minor stuff takes on a much worse tone.

The Cosby/Weinstein stuff is on a more serious level than the Halperin stuff which is more serious than the Bush stuff. But the Bush stuff does seem to go beyond jokes in poor taste, which is what he seems to be trying to frame it as. I've never grabbed a woman's ass as a joke (without consent).

[Sour Masher]

Yeah, good points. I have never and would never do what Bush did (hell, I've always been afraid to even make the first move on a date; in my youth, more than one girl has admitted she went from liking me to thinking I might be gay because of my lack of initiating intimacy). He may very well have been doing it to get his decrepit old rocks off. He may also have been doing it just because he thought the joke and act would be so incongruous and inappropriate that those he was doing it to would just find it absurd and eventually funny. What humor theorists would call a benign violation, which because of its lack of real malicious intent or threat, is ultimately harmless and therefore funny.

Of course, him thinking of it as more of a joke than an assault doesn't matter much. What matters more is how those he did it to perceived it. I guess where I categorize it a little differently is that I can see how some might have taken it as a shock-joke more than an assault, given his age, respectable public image, etc. Or maybe not. I don't think anyone he has done it too has come out to say it was funny and benign.

[Redbirds Fan]

First of all, it's not one woman, it's three women so far, and it sounds like this is something he did routinely.

I don't think this is really about trying to sully Bush's legacy as much as women trying to find a voice for themselves. It's not quite the same as if Barbara Bush did it to you. The power dynamics are not equal between men and women in those type of situations.

When I think about what kind of world my daughters are going into, it really makes me sad that this is the kind of thing they will experience. I know it's always been that way and likely is better now than it ever was. But as a guy you just never have to worry about that.

I'm talking about this one case in particular. I don't think she has had a problem trying to find her voice. I think it was more a case of #Iwantaheadlinetoo, and she came up with the ruse of being triggered by the Bush/Obama photo to make it seem at least mildly plausible.

The power dynamic of an 89-year old man in a wheel-chair isn't exactly compelling. She obviously wasn't impressed with his status as a former POTUS, as she griped about being instructed to call him "Mr. President" (even though that is the proper for of address in polite society).

I think most men would be very reluctant to report an incident with Mrs. Bush such as I postulated, for several reasons.

As Masher said, though, it is difficult to even discuss this subject short of being 100% on the side of the victims without being seen as a neanderthal, but that is part of the trap we fall into. I believe we can still look at the facts of individual cases.

And I'm going to say that most of you, at some point in your lives, whether it was at a party or a club or some other social situation, have been talking to a girl...flirting...getting along...trading glances...and she put a hand on your arm or your chest...and at some point...without asking or getting an invitation...you intentionally brushed your hand somewhere between her L5/S1 and the top of her thigh.

I couldn't tell you who or when or where, but I probably did, too. I hope my wife doesn't read about it on facebook tomorrow.

[nullnor]

is there something about old men in a wheelchair being so randy they grab their nurses buttocks? viagra seems like silly invention. they need to make more anti-viagra.

[umjewman]

I'm not saying she had no right to complain. She did. I just think that if Barbara Bush had tweaked me on the ass I would have kept mum about it rather than drag her into the mud four years later as she was circling the drain, for no good reason than to get my name into the media. But I guess if she was that disturbed by the picture of Bush shaking hands with Obama....

Didn't you once talk about having the hots for Barbara Bush? Methinks you would welcome her tweaking you on the ass...

[gcstomp]

L5/S1 no clue what that region is, but say it again, slowly, and have fresh cut flowers at the ready. I appreciate that term, New to me, benign violation. The person being brushed by a senior in a wheel chair might be offended, or somewhat disgusted, but lacks the ingredients to be an assault. There is no danger, or sexual caveman beckoning demanding attention. Any able bodied person could step away from "assaulter?" or with 1 finger push elder over. It falls more in camp of telling inappropriate joke, the physical component being so empty as to call in that cat, to my take. I have a grandma in an assisted living home, and have had occasion to help move/assist some residents to various more comfortable positions or seating. I have had that type of described inappropriate grazing to patting done to my person, and it would not occur to me to report that to someone. It lacks impact needed to be anything more than a yuck moment, and I think it is not terrible to think of levels in a scale of 1 to 100 of various offenses.

[Kevin Seitzer]

Bush wasn't "grazing" anyone.

By now the photographer was readying the shot. My husband stood on one side of the wheelchair, and I stood on the other. President Bush put his arm around me, low on my back. His comic timing was impeccable. “David Cop-a-feel,” he said, and squeezed my butt, hard, just as the photographer snapped the photo. Instinctively, I swiped his hand away.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2017/10/george_h_w_bush_groped_me_during_a_2014_photo_op.html

[gcstomp]

Ks, would it matter if it was grazing or cupping. Did the described squeeze with bad pun as picture being taken go from simply creepy to more menacing with tints of sexual assault by virtue of being a squeeze? Look, it was wrong, creepy, even disgusting. But it to me is about a 1 on a scale of 1 to 1000, and not in the felony camp, with the Cosby systematic drugging and rapes being stuff someone gets put away for for decades. Just my opinion.