2012 NBA Playoffs

[dslaw]

Anyone who says that he's a choker, or not one of the top 10 players of all time, is an idiot.

I guess I'm an idiot. If I had a team I would love to have him and hate to play against him but top 10 of all time? It is very debatable. Maybe after the career is over it will be top 5 but right now you can come up with a list of 10 pretty easily leaving him out.

Edit to add - looks like DMT already did a list of 10 w/out James. We could argue about it but it shows how easily a list without James can be done.

[B-Fly]

I doubt it too, but what if he somehow manages to never win a title? This current Heat team has no chance to win a title IMO because of their lack of size and depth. This isn't to say they won't add the necessary components or that LeBron won't win with another team, but it could be awhile for him. I noticed you didn't mention Malone or Stockton, both with stats that certainly would support them being top-10 players.

I guess I'm not remotely convinced that this current Heat team has no chance to win a title. I'd give them a 20% chance this year - at least a 50% chance to win the East times a 40% chance to defeat SA or OKC. I don't think the Heat's problem is the roster. I think it's the coaching/system/scheme. That's the opposite of the Malone/Stockton problem, IMO. If Bosh gets back at close to full strength, the front line of James-Bosh-Haslem/Anthony/Turiaf is better than Duncan, Leonard, Bonner/Blair/Splitter/Diaw, and yet no one is questioning the Spurs' chances. Why? Because the Spurs have a great coach and a great system that permits role players to be more consistently successful than what Spoelstra's got going on.

[OaklandA's]

If Bosh gets back at close to full strength, the front line of James-Bosh-Haslem/Anthony/Turiaf is better than Duncan, Leonard, Bonner/Blair/Splitter/Diaw, and yet no one is questioning the Spurs' chances. Why? Because the Spurs have a great coach and a great system that permits role players to be more consistently successful than what Spoelstra's got going on.

The Spurs do have great coaching, but I also think they have a better roster. I think the Heat have done a very poor job in the 4-12 part of their roster. Look at the stats of the frontline players you mentioned:
Anthony - 3.4 P/G, 3.7 R/G
Turiaf - 3.5 P/G, 4.5 R/G
Haslem - 6.0 P/G, 7.3 R/G, .423 FG%

Anthony and Turiaf are offensive zeroes. Anthony is a good shot blocker, but is not a good rebounder. Haslem has some offensive skills, but had a very poor shooting year. I think Leonard, Blair, Splitter and Diaw are all better players than the Heat's frontline (excluding James and Bosh). And I think the same applies to the backcourt/wings - the Spurs have great depth there too, much better than the James Jones/Mike Miller/Norris Cole/Shane Battier group that gets major minutes for the Heat.

That said, I do agree with you that the Heat have a decent chance if they can get Bosh back.

[Lurker765]

How 'bout LeBron's performance? 40-18-9 with the season pretty much on the line. Wow.

Pshaw -- that line is barely more than the other four Miami starters combined. The other four combined for 41-17-9. Lebron will have to do better than that next time.

[B-Fly]

The Spurs do have great coaching, but I also think they have a better roster. I think the Heat have done a very poor job in the 4-12 part of their roster. Look at the stats of the frontline players you mentioned:
Anthony - 3.4 P/G, 3.7 R/G
Turiaf - 3.5 P/G, 4.5 R/G
Haslem - 6.0 P/G, 7.3 R/G, .423 FG%

Anthony and Turiaf are offensive zeroes. Anthony is a good shot blocker, but is not a good rebounder. Haslem has some offensive skills, but had a very poor shooting year. I think Leonard, Blair, Splitter and Diaw are all better players than the Heat's frontline (excluding James and Bosh). And I think the same applies to the backcourt/wings - the Spurs have great depth there too, much better than the James Jones/Mike Miller/Norris Cole/Shane Battier group that gets major minutes for the Heat.

That said, I do agree with you that the Heat have a decent chance if they can get Bosh back.

Yes, the Spurs have better role players up front than Anthony/Haslem/Turiaf, but what I meant is that with Bosh, the frontcourt of James, Bosh and spare parts is better than the frontcourt of Duncan and the Spurs cast of superior role players.

[Hornsby]

And just because I know Hornsby won't be able to resist responding, no way does LeBron rank ahead of any of these guys, and I'm sure there are a couple more.

Dr J
Big O
Russell
Jordan
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Kareem

I'd put LeBron in that list ahead of Shaq and Duncan, and maybe Russell. James has an all around game that almost nobody in history has had, he could play in any era, against any player, and dominate. I would have loved to see him play against MJ in his prime, that would have been epic.

[DMT]

Great seeing the Lakers get embarrassed in the semis just like last year. The Western Finals are going to be fun to watch.

[Judge Jude]

It would be absurd to list LeBron top 10 but not Chamberlain, who so far has one more assist title, for example, than LeBron has....

[DMT]

I think LeBron is top 10 or extremely close to it. That said, Wilt Chamberlain should be on this list. I'm not sure what the exact order should be, but assuming that MJ is first, Wilt has to be top 3-4, right?

My list wasn't meant to be exact, I just pulled the first 10 I could think of. Yes, Wilt is top-10 for sure, probably replacing Dr J as B-Fly suggested. I never said LeBron wasn't a great player, nor that he has no chance to be a top-10 player by the time he retires. But to claim that anyone who doesn't think he already is top-10 is an idiot was just an idiotic comment that needed to be struck down.

And I was using hyperbole when I said the Heat have 'no chance' to win but I think they are a long-shot this year, and hopeless without Bosh. So that thought led to my questioning of how LeBron will be viewed if he never wins a title. IMO no NBA player can be considered among the top-10 if they never won, no matter how good their skills are and I think most people agree.

[DMT]

I'd put LeBron in that list ahead of Shaq and Duncan, and maybe Russell. James has an all around game that almost nobody in history has had, he could play in any era, against any player, and dominate. I would have loved to see him play against MJ in his prime, that would have been epic.

This is your prerogative but you're in the minority here, not the rest of us 'idiots'.

[OaklandA's]

This is your prerogative but you're in the minority here, not the rest of us 'idiots'.

I would also put LeBron in my Top 10 all time, ahead of Shaq, Kobe, and Dr. J. LeBron averages around 28 Pts/G in an era when overall scoring is way down. He adds 7 Rebounds and 7 Assists a game, shoots a high FG%, can guard anyone on defense, can bring the ball up the court, and plays tons of minutes.

My All-Time Top 10 would be: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Robertson, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, LeBron, Duncan, Olajuwon

[DMT]

I would also put LeBron in my Top 10 all time, ahead of Shaq, Kobe, and Dr. J. LeBron averages around 28 Pts/G in an era when overall scoring is way down. He adds 7 Rebounds and 7 Assists a game, shoots a high FG%, can guard anyone on defense, can bring the ball up the court, and plays tons of minutes. AND HAS 0 TITLES

My All-Time Top 10 would be: Jordan, Bird, Magic, Robertson, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, LeBron, Duncan, Olajuwon

One of these is not like the other (I gave you a hint).

[OaklandA's]

One of these is not like the other (I gave you a hint).

Sorry, I don't subscribe to that theory. I also have no problem considering people like Ted Williams or Ty Cobb for my All-Time Top 10 in Baseball, or Dan Marino or Barry Sanders for my Top 10 in the NFL.

[TS Garp]

There's no way that LeBron deserves to be ahead of Shaq at this point -- come on. Nor does Duncan, for that matter.

[DMT]

Sorry, I don't subscribe to that theory. I also have no problem considering people like Ted Williams or Ty Cobb for my All-Time Top 10 in Baseball, or Dan Marino or Barry Sanders for my Top 10 in the NFL.

Sorry, but team performance is much more important in evaluating basketball players than football or baseball because the teams are much smaller. Why no love for Malone or Stockton?