Is ARod the best 3B ever?

[onejayhawk]

While the career stats sheets make a very strong case for Arod being the best SS and/or best 3bman of all time, and maybe one of the top 10 hitters of all time, I cannot imagine many who lived and watched baseball during his 3b years ever making a strong and serious case for Arod being an all time great, let alone the very best at any position. The only people I could see making this argument are statistical purists who decide to ignore PEDs as a stat booster, either because they believe the effects of PEDs are overblown, or they believe that everyone in Arods era cheated, but only a few got caught and punished. I have seen folks on here make both cases. I respect those folks, but I disagree with them on both of these issues to an extent.

I have to disagree with you here. Ask Randy Johnson, for example.

When his HoF year comes around, I see a lot of arguments that he should be inducted in spite of the games at 3B, personal habits and PED issues. He is that much better a hitter than Ripken and Jeter. Honus is the only one you can make a case for, and that is largely because the comparisons are so difficult.

3B is different. Until Schmidt, there was never a great 3B. On his heels you get Brett and Boggs, either of whom would have been the 3B in history, except for Schmidt. With him in the mix, there is no discussion. ARod is like that to the SS.

J

[Sour Masher]

Again, the numbers are undeniable. On paper, in a vacuum, he is an all time great worthy of being on the 1st team all history at either SS or 3b. But I think he will be a poster boy of the anti numbers crowd. Many will point to him as the epitome of how the numbers can lie. I can't think of a player in any sport, outside of maybe lance armstrong, who was as great and at the same time as unrespected as Arod has become. Bonds was dispised but even his detractors respected his fearsomeness at the plate. Even in their sin, I think most fans respect Bonds' arrogance and desire to prove he was the best more than they do Arod and his perceived motivation of greed.

For Arod, I don't know what the chicken or the egg was with him, but at some point, most began focusing on the failings rather than the successes. His biggest moments, many of them anyway, have been moments of failure and ridicule. It did not help that he played right next to Jeter during that time. The contrast between the two does not play in his favor in the minds of most sports fans, despite the numbers suggesting Arod was the better talent by a fairly wide margin for most of their careers.

In fact, I bet if you ask most people who the better ss was they will say Jeter. I personally do not consider jeter the greatest SS of all time (I have Wagner and Ripkin ahead of him at minimum), but it is hard for me to dismiss completely that in many ways he was better than Arod. So, for me, Arod cannot be the best SS ever.

3b is historically the weaker position and Arod does not have the disadvantage of having had to play right next to an all time great 3bman beloved by all and considered a great leader and teammate, so it is easier for me to swallow him being the best 3bman of all time, because part of me really wants to respect those numbers and wants those stats to be somewhere on the all time great list where the numbers belong. But even there, it is hard to separate the greatness of the numbers from the rest of the package. Absent the name, the numbers deserve the place in history. But with the name attached I just can't admit to him being an all time #1 at a position guy. He embodied so much that is bad in the game, and I don't mean just the cheating or the arrogance or the lack of leadership. I also the god given talent devoid of the desperate desire to win and the pure passion and love for the game that I think fans admire in their favorite players. Or maybe it is more or less than that. I am not totally sure what it is, but Arod is missing it for me. Admitting that he is the very best anything in the history of the sport I love is sad to me. Sort of like if that blonde jerk in the Karate Kid had just won, gotten the trophy, and gone on as the undisputed champ. Maybe that is the reality and I just can't accept it, but if he is the best now, I sure hope someone comes along to take that title one day.

Edit: I am aware the a poll here would likely heavily favor Arod over Jeter, but I'd be surprised if an ESPN poll did not favor jeter over arod. In most cases I'd respect the poll here with votes from a more informed minority over one involving a less informed majority. But in this case I think the wider poll might have a little more merit than most here would concede.

[onejayhawk]

Again, the numbers are undeniable. On paper, in a vacuum, he is an all time great worthy of being on the 1st team all history at either SS or 3b. But I think he will be a poster boy of the anti numbers crowd.

This says it all.

Speaking as a baseball fan of this generation, I always thought Jeter took credit that belonged to his much better teammate.

J

[Sour Masher]

This says it all.

Speaking as a baseball fan of this generation, I always thought Jeter took credit that belonged to his much better teammate.

J

So the fact that those numbers were chemically aided mean what? I suppose that is the question fans will continue to ask for a long, long time. With Arod, though, as I pointed out, it isn't just about the PED debate. It is about the perception that he was not clutch, not a leader, not transcendent in the way other all time greats were. Maybe that is just perception, but folks just don't think of clutch hits in big moments with Arod, they don't think of him willing his teams to win, inspiring his teammates, sacrificing his body to make the key play (slapping at a glove doesn't count as that). No one can deny his numbers puts him in the conversation of all time great, but I think most would stop short of ranking him above everyone else that ever played at any position. It just seems wrong that a guy like him can be considered the best ever.

But I agree, that in the minds of casual fans, Jeter is overrated and Arod is probably underrated. I guess I am just more conflicted about their relative place in history than casual fans or statheads. Stuck in the middle somewhere.

[TranaGreg]

But I agree, that in the minds of casual fans, Jeter is overrated and Arod is probably underrated. I guess I am just more conflicted about their relative place in history than casual fans or statheads. Stuck in the middle somewhere.

not just you - I'd suggest most students of the game. I agree wholeheartedly that stats alone can't be the determining criteria.

Lies, damned lies, and ... what was that third thing ...

[james33]

WAR is a nice, useful stat, but it is hardly unchallengable. The modern defensive numbers in it are the best we can do, but still questionable. The pre-2002 (before UZR) defensive numbers are even less reliable.

What's Schmidt's defensive WAR? I wonder how that's calculated, and if it isn't any better than ARod's defensive war, that's a red flag.

[onejayhawk]

So the fact that those numbers were chemically aided mean what? I suppose that is the question fans will continue to ask for a long, long time. With Arod, though, as I pointed out, it isn't just about the PED debate. It is about the perception that he was not clutch, not a leader, not transcendent in the way other all time greats were. Maybe that is just perception, but folks just don't think of clutch hits in big moments with Arod, they don't think of him willing his teams to win, inspiring his teammates, sacrificing his body to make the key play (slapping at a glove doesn't count as that). No one can deny his numbers puts him in the conversation of all time great, but I think most would stop short of ranking him above everyone else that ever played at any position. It just seems wrong that a guy like him can be considered the best ever.

But I agree, that in the minds of casual fans, Jeter is overrated and Arod is probably underrated. I guess I am just more conflicted about their relative place in history than casual fans or statheads. Stuck in the middle somewhere.

That is going to be the problem. We don't know when the supplements started. We cannot know what his stats would have been without them. We do know he did more on the field to win Yankee games than the Captain, even allowing for the difference in position. How much of that is juice, eh....

Bill James has said that we will eventually have to ignore PEDs for exactly this reason. In the end, the impact is too speculative to not dismiss. Bonds, Clemens and ARod all deserve to be 1st ballot HoF. None of them will be. But, if you don't put them in, you harm your portrayal of the era. This from someone who thinks Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose should wait forever, and a season, before they are eligible.

What's Schmidt's defensive WAR? I wonder how that's calculated, and if it isn't any better than ARod's defensive war, that's a red flag.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1274&position=3B/SS

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1011586&position=3B

The short answer is it is better, by quite a bit, but it's closer than you might think. ARod was a GG caliber SS for almost a decade. His time at 3B is a shell of that.

J

[Pogues]

What's Schmidt's defensive WAR? I wonder how that's calculated, and if it isn't any better than ARod's defensive war, that's a red flag.

Schmidt: 17.6 (1.1 per full season 1972-1988)
ARod: 2.6 (at 3B, or .3 per full season 2004-2012)

That's what 10 Gold Gloves vs. 0 Gold Gloves will get you. I'd love to hear an argument from anyone saying ARod was the better fielder at 3B.