Pujols and Hamilton...

[The Dane]

So, if you're sure that Pujols was on the juice all through his Cardinal career, do you feel the same about Bonds and his peak years with the Giants?

Are you asking me if I think Bonds was on steroids? Are you KIDDING me? I believe with near certainty that more than 90% of players used... at least once. And I am equally certain that in his peak years, Bonds didn't do all of the steroids that were in the game. Neither did Clemens. Or McGwire. They just took the heat. And hopefully when one of the Shiny Boys, Maddux, Griffey, etc. get in the Hall, maybe they'll do the honorable thing and admit their usage, so people can just get their tiny minds around the scope of the problem and get some perspective for when they start throwing insults at players.

I feel very certain that Pujols used, but that doesn't make him less of a player -or a person- in my eyes.

[gcstomp]

Dane hit on what I think is a near certainty. There are poster children for steroid use, but it was as widespread as using the whirlpool, ice bath, massage, weight room, and stretching, cardio. It was a standard part the regimen across the vast majority of players, for a time. The signing of a freakin quarter billion dollar contract is plenty incentive to stop doing anything against the rules, no matter how tiny the chance of getting caught would be.

[Fresno Bob]

I'd suggest everyone read "Juiced" by Jose Canseco...it's the best work on the Steroid era I've read. maybe we just declare the steroid era the "Performance Era" and treat the numbers like we treat the dead ball era.

[bryanbutler]

although canseco might be right, it's really hard to take him seriously, given other events.

[Hornsby]

Are you asking me if I think Bonds was on steroids? Are you KIDDING me? I believe with near certainty that more than 90% of players used... at least once. And I am equally certain that in his peak years, Bonds didn't do all of the steroids that were in the game. Neither did Clemens. Or McGwire. They just took the heat. And hopefully when one of the Shiny Boys, Maddux, Griffey, etc. get in the Hall, maybe they'll do the honorable thing and admit their usage, so people can just get their tiny minds around the scope of the problem and get some perspective for when they start throwing insults at players.

I feel very certain that Pujols used, but that doesn't make him less of a player -or a person- in my eyes.

That's exactly what I'm asking you...do you believe that Bonds, in his peak seasons with the Giants, was in large part, a product of PED's? And what exactly does the phrase, "Bonds didn't do all of the steroids that were in the game". I'm very curious...

[mgwiz22]

How about reading work that shows that PEDs are very much overblown?

http://joesheehan.com/?q=node/638

While I have a great deal of respect for the work of Joe Sheehan, and I certainly cannot argue with the mathematical figures, I don't see these figures as proof that PED's aren't effective in their intended use of enhancing performance.

[The Dane]

So what if you think 90% used? That still means that 10% did not. You shouldn't be comfortable with throwing out baseless accusations that people broke the law and/or the rules of MLB without even a modicum of proof.

Baseless? I think any understanding of human nature is basis enough to postulate big numbers. Also, several people, Canseco included, back those figures. And let's be frank, Canseco is the ONLY person who has ever told the truth about steroids. We can laugh at him all we want, we can call him petty and meatheaded, but he has more credibility than anyone involved. Baseless? No.

Also, I thought 90% was generous. It's probably higher.

[The Dane]

That's exactly what I'm asking you...do you believe that Bonds, in his peak seasons with the Giants, was in large part, a product of PED's? And what exactly does the phrase, "Bonds didn't do all of the steroids that were in the game". I'm very curious...

That a different question. Do I think Bonds did steroids? Of course I do. No one doubts he did, even his most ardent supporters. If you think there are sane and rational people out there that really think that Bonds didn't use, even in San Francisco, you are living in a cave and have no concept of how the world really is.

Do I think he was a "product of PEDs"? In that, everyone in those days was using, he was, but surely no more than anyone else. That's where my "didn't do all the steroids" line comes in. I remember a great quote from Rafael Furcal, he said something like "Everybody was doing steroids, but not everyone was hitting 70 homeruns." That's how I see it. Bonds was the greatest hitter of his generation, and if you ignore steroids (impossible to do, I know) he's the best hitter ever. His greatness during his peak years is undeniable and you have to go through all sorts of dubious mental gymnastics to convince yourself against it. Steroids clouds the issue of how to compare him with greats of other eras. Personally, I don't see it as so cloudy. Other eras had their problems and you could argue that every pre-integration set of stats was as tainted as any in the PED era.

If you believe that only a select few evil, selfish cheaters used, than it is easier to give Bonds a simple label, a red S, if you will. If you accept that PED use was rampant and pervasive, you can feel confident comparing Bonds to his peers, and then there is no comparison: in his peak years, Bonds was the greatest hitter the game had ever seen.

[The Dane]

Absolutely baseless without proof. If there is even one innocent person it is inappropriate to single out anyone as guilty without proof.

I, too, believe that 90+% used steroids. But I, apparently unlike you, don't know who those people specifically are. I don't know whether Albert Pujols used steroids and am mega reluctant to throw out baseless accusations that he did use. Specific accusations against specific players that have no basis in factual grounding are....wait for it.....baseless.

"Baseless" does not mean "without proof." It means "without basis, grounded, unfounded." My accusations are plenty enough based in facts. I didn't just pull Pujols' name out of a hat and accuse him. I extrapolated based on things I see in the world. Would I want my courts of justice to act in the same manner? Of course not. But then, I'm not a judge ruling on this issue. I'm a baseball fan posting on a message board and for most of the shit posted here, this accusation is about par for the course.

Also, I don't like the way we are using "accusation" here. I don't feel I am accusing Pujols of using PEDS, anymore than someone would accuse human beings of being self-interested or jingoistic or accuse dogs of licking their balls. If you accept that 90% of the people used and you can get your mind around the idea of a "PED Era" how is saying that any player of the era used PEDs and accusation? I think they all did.

[Hornsby]

That a different question. Do I think Bonds did steroids? Of course I do. No one doubts he did, even his most ardent supporters. If you think there are sane and rational people out there that really think that Bonds didn't use, even in San Francisco, you are living in a cave and have no concept of how the world really is.

Do I think he was a "product of PEDs"? In that, everyone in those days was using, he was, but surely no more than anyone else. That's where my "didn't do all the steroids" line comes in. I remember a great quote from Rafael Furcal, he said something like "Everybody was doing steroids, but not everyone was hitting 70 homeruns." That's how I see it. Bonds was the greatest hitter of his generation, and if you ignore steroids (impossible to do, I know) he's the best hitter ever. His greatness during his peak years is undeniable and you have to go through all sorts of dubious mental gymnastics to convince yourself against it. Steroids clouds the issue of how to compare him with greats of other eras. Personally, I don't see it as so cloudy. Other eras had their problems and you could argue that every pre-integration set of stats was as tainted as any in the PED era.

If you believe that only a select few evil, selfish cheaters used, than it is easier to give Bonds a simple label, a red S, if you will. If you accept that PED use was rampant and pervasive, you can feel confident comparing Bonds to his peers, and then there is no comparison: in his peak years, Bonds was the greatest hitter the game had ever seen.

No, it's actually the same question, just a little more pointed to get an answer from you.

So let me get this straight...you believe that Bonds was the greatest hitter of his generation. And you find NOTHING suspicious about him jumping from a career high of 42 HR's to 49, and then at age 36 and absurd 73 home runs? Do you think that he was taking steroids all along and suddenly developed otherworldly power in middle age? An age where each and every male is in decline?

That's all I want to know...was he the product of steroids as you claim Pujols to be or not?

[The Dane]

No, it's actually the same question, just a little more pointed to get an answer from you.

So let me get this straight...you believe that Bonds was the greatest hitter of his generation. And you find NOTHING suspicious about him jumping from a career high of 42 HR's to 49, and then at age 36 and absurd 73 home runs? Do you think that he was taking steroids all along and suddenly developed otherworldly power in middle age? An age where each and every male is in decline?

That's all I want to know...was he the product of steroids as you claim Pujols to be or not?

Dude. Sometimes...

"Do you think Bonds was on steroids?" and "Do you think Bonds' steroid use played a big part in his success?" are two different questions. But I answered them both. Yes, and no more than anyone else.

I get from your tone that you think you are going to catch me in some flaw in my reasoning, some contradiction. There isn't one. I can be both a fan of Bonds and his Giants and accept that he was a steroid user. I can also accept that probably every player we all admire used as well. My love for the game and it's heroes is not tied up in some trumped up morality play over PEDs. I can see the world for what it is AND what it should be and I am careful not to confuse the two.

[cavebird]

Are you asking me if I think Bonds was on steroids? Are you KIDDING me? I believe with near certainty that more than 90% of players used... at least once. And I am equally certain that in his peak years, Bonds didn't do all of the steroids that were in the game. Neither did Clemens. Or McGwire. They just took the heat. And hopefully when one of the Shiny Boys, Maddux, Griffey, etc. get in the Hall, maybe they'll do the honorable thing and admit their usage, so people can just get their tiny minds around the scope of the problem and get some perspective for when they start throwing insults at players.

I feel very certain that Pujols used, but that doesn't make him less of a player -or a person- in my eyes.

This post really bothers me. I am sure a large number of players used, although I doubt it was as high as you and some others think. My purely speculative guess is between 50%-75% at the peak. You can guess some from statistics, guys who had their best years after the age of 33, well, that does look interesting. Others probably did throughout their careers so it is hard to tell from stats---guys like McGwire who have more or less confessed are obvious examples. Bonds is another great example of what steroids could do---he had such a clear delineation from the testimony in his cases and the physical evidence from when he used and didn't. He showed that if you take a guy who is HOF caliber without roids and put him on roids you create a freak of nature err science that is more or less impossible to stop without holding up four fingers.

Anyway, the reason your logic bothers me is this: there are some guys who aren't particularly suspected who used. There are also, however, some who actually didn't. There were even a few who griped about steroids early; Frank Thomas comes to mind. To say that all the non-suspected guys have to confess and admit to using to be honorable puts the guys who didn't use in an impossible position---they can't be honorable to you unless they confess to something they didn't do.

[The Dane]

Anyway, the reason your logic bothers me is this: there are some guys who aren't particularly suspected who used. There are also, however, some who actually didn't. There were even a few who griped about steroids early; Frank Thomas comes to mind. To say that all the non-suspected guys have to confess and admit to using to be honorable puts the guys who didn't use in an impossible position---they can't be honorable to you unless they confess to something they didn't do.

I argued this from the Bonds days. Although the ship has certainly sailed by now, MLB truly ruined their chance to do this right, and I believe they did so with a conscious need to deflect blame onto the players and away from ownership/MLB. I believe all parties are equally culpable and because of the fame and income of players, they easily take the brunt of the blame, and not fairly so. All MLB had to do was draw a line in the dirt, pick a date, and proclaim that date the End of the Steroid Era. All usage is to stop at that time. All usage before that time is completely forgiven, even in regards to Hall inclusion. Players must be completely forthcoming and 'sell out' their contacts and teammates, with full understanding that NO ONE will be punished for anything that happened before that date. Any failed test after this date results in immediate permanent suspension (with an appeals process, of course) and exclusion from Hall consideration. This way they can have a clear picture of who and when and can paint a relatively accurate picture of this era, which is all important for the posterity of the game, which is currently ruined (and I think this is why so many people are disillusioned). We can't really know who used and who didn't, who did and stopped, and who is still using and covering it well.

It is SO jacked up all to hell and the current enforcements do little to change things and still put the blame squarely on the players. In this screwed up world, the standards of decorum around blame and restraint go right out the window. If the players don't like us blaming them, then they shouldn't have done steroids in the first place, and shouldn't have worked so hard to cover it all up. We see a problem, and they (players and MLB) refuse to give us anything more than the few players stupid enough to get caught. We KNOW the problem is bigger than Biogenesis, but as it stands, Ryan Braun takes ALL the heat for every modern steroid user, and he isn't the only one, just as Bonds wasn't. I don't defend him because he's innocent, I defend him because he isn't the only one guilty and many more are equally guilty and skating, same with Bonds.

For me to feel good about this, I need everyone to come clean, but that can never happen with punishment and banishment on the table. So, we're all screwed.

[Fresno Bob]

Steroids are good for you, they let you workout more and recover faster, reversing the decline of aging. This is how they helped Bonds the most. Bonds was able to extend his peak natural talent into a time when he could apply his greater knowledge and experience with huge improvements in the available scouting/analysis/video of pitchers.

at the AFL 2 years ago, one of the speakers had gone through a clinical trial of steroid use, and he likened the confidence boost they gave him to "cocaine without the crash". I bet that helps too.

[Mithrandir]

Two more weak ass grounders to third..the second with the bases loaded. He.looks.putrud.